DID X-ring seal failure

[Slowboy 20,499]

I fitted a new DID Xring chain to my NC700X, which I've owned from new, around September last year, and yesterday, while the rear tyre was being replaced, the fitter noticed a couple of the seals bulging out. A quick look later he found me and advised that a number of the seals ( at least 8 of them) were bulging from behind the plates and a couple had disappeared altogether. Today I rang the supplier, noting the bike has done somewhere between 3 and 5k since fitted ( I can't remember exactly when I I'd it but I know I bought them at the time of the MoT and I know what mileage it had then).

The supplier (reputable) is now looking at the photos I have sent them as I have asked them to replace it under the DID two year guarantee. I'll post the pictures later, but can any one advise where I stand legally. The rivet link I fitted is just fine by the way, and the bikes had a tutorro auto oiler on it from new, which I keep topped up with blue scottoil.

In over 250,000 miles on bikes with a chain I've never seen 'owt like it before. I can't see the chain lasting much longer, but it looks like a materials failure to me.

The original Honda chain lasted over 20,000 miles, it was the front sprocket that was the reason for changing.

On an unrelated note, my factory manual was delivered yesterday, so no more dealer servicing from now on.

Might just be worth checking your chains, especially if they are DID ones, just in case, it might be a one off, it might not, but I like to think I look after mine with regular soapy water cleans and good lube.

Edited for comedy spelling

Edited August 5, 2016 by slowboy

[nabrU 2,294]

Brian,

 

Many thanks for sharing this.

What exactly model of DID chain is that?

[Tex 36,817]

Well, that'd spoil your day alright! Must confess I haven't come across that one before and will be very interested to see what the supplier has to say. I bet he tries to make it your fault somehow or other!

[DaveM59 1,605]

Is this in any way connected or similar to the recall done way back on OEM chains? Could it be an old stock chain you fitted that came from the same batch that were replaced, or a repeat of the same assembly fault from the same manufacturer?

[Slowboy 20,499]

Is this in any way connected or similar to the recall done way back on OEM chains? Could it be an old stock chain you fitted that came from the same batch that were replaced, or a repeat of the same assembly fault from the same manufacturer?

No it's not, the replacement chain was fitted at the first 500 mile service and lasted over 20,000 miles, this was the top spec DID chain bought from a reputable supplier.

[Slowboy 20,499]

And here's a pic to show what I mean...

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Edited August 5, 2016 by slowboy

[Guest Lenp]

I will be looking forward to hearing the result hope in your favour, was it a endless chain?..Ride Safe.

[DaveM59 1,605]

It almost looks like the chain has been squeezed and the seals squished out...really odd.

Sprocket alignment can't be an issue or any of the usual chain noise/vibration/sticking problems. It has to be a chemical reaction?

 

The only thing that springs to mind is that the seal has been attacked by something that has caused it to soften or expand.

In old Land Rovers the steering boxes used to leak power steering oil, and the cure was to add a cup of brake fluid to the oil and it swelled (or shrank) the seals stopping the leak. There is something in brake fluid that causes certain rubbers to regain their suppleness.

Could the blue Scottoil be the culprit or has the chain been cleaned with a different product that combined with the scottoil, or even on it's own, damaged the seals. Product info on the container that may state it's 100% safe on any chain will not take into consideration mixing with other products from other manufacturers.

 

Nice also to see a bit of bike that looks like it actually gets plenty of use and not pampered in showroom condition all it's life!

[Slowboy 20,499]

Dave,

The only thing I clean it with is a sponge and soapy water, but as you say it looks like a chemical reaction causing the seals to swell. I've been using blue scottoil on chains for over 20 years and always got good mileage out of them. It could be the wrong materials used for the seals, but I've never seen something like this before. It could be the oil if they've changed the formulation, but as I used the same batch on the last chain with no issues, it seems unlikely. I've been asked to send the chain back, so I'll be taking it off on Monday and the supplier is paying for it to be collected. I'm half tempted to buy a genuine Honda chain and if mine gets replaced keep the replacment for the next time I change the chain and sprockets. A bike without a chain is as much use as a chocolate teapot. Luckily I have my trusty 31 year old Kwaker GT750 I can use as a spare.

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Edited August 6, 2016 by slowboy

[DaveM59 1,605]

Must be defective manufacturing then. At least you have the ability to do your own link rivets so have the breaker tool as well presumably. It would be a real pain if you had to remove the swing arm.

[embee 7,288]

Seeing that with no other info you'd definitely suspect some sort of solvent effect. Certainly any sort of mineral oil or paraffin shouldn't affect the rubber, assuming it's NBR nitrile.

 

I would just suggest that there's no such thing as a "genuine Honda" chain, they fit chains from the big chain manufacturers. If you go to a Honda dealer you'll get a DID O-ring chain or similar.

 

Out of interest, was your retailer a well known name or an auction site supplier? I don't know but I'd guess that there are fake DID chains around just like there are fake everything else on the auction site. There are definitely fake NGK plugs for sale. Just a thought. I like to use well known suppliers, like Wemoto, Demon Tweeks, M&P, Busters etc for stuff like chains.

 

Definitely odd, it'll be interesting to hear the outcome.

[larryblag 14,236]

https://flic.kr/p/KsNRTA

[Slowboy 20,499]

Murray, it came from bike torque racing via that auction site. So far the company have been helpful. I will record the outcome, but, I have some suspicions about the provenance of the chain, I will keep a short length when I send it back so I retain some evidence.

Edited August 7, 2016 by slowboy

[Guest sykospain]

Love Gary's PhotoShop of the chain : -  "D.U.D." - very good.  And where did you get the Bultaco Matador ?  Very rare....my boozing pal Paco in the beach bar has one.

[Slowboy 20,499]

Have checked the chain against a known genuine one, and now I am absolutely certain it is genuine. It is a 520 VX2. I would be interested if anyone else has one fitted and has a similar issue, or has had one fitted with no issues. A mileage comparison would be interesting.

Let's wait and see what the dealer says when they see it. So far I have been impressed with their approach.

[larryblag 14,236]

https://flic.kr/p/KVvcBc

I'm sorry - I'll stop now

[nabrU 2,294]

Have checked the chain against a known genuine one, and now I am absolutely certain it is genuine. It is a 520 VX2. I would be interested if anyone else has one fitted and has a similar issue, or has had one fitted with no issues. A mileage comparison would be interesting.

 

Hi Brian,

I've got DID 520VX2GB (gold one). It has been fitted in mid March and been used for last 3500 miles with no issues.

[Slowboy 20,499]

Hi Brian,

I've got DID 520VX2GB (gold one). It has been fitted in mid March and been used for last 3500 miles with no issues.

Thanks

[embee 7,288]

Mine has been on for a couple of years and 12k miles with no sign of anything untoward. I use a chain oiler with either the PD Oiler supplied oil or engine oil at a push. I do have an enclosure fitted which protects the chain from road dirt, so it never needs cleaning, the oiler does that.

[mcress 139]

18k on my DID 520VX2 with no issues - it will need replacing in the next couple of thousand though, more due to sprocket wear than the chain though. I'll be fitting the same again.

Cheers,

Mike.

[Slowboy 20,499]

This is the response I had from Bike Torque Racing

"Dear Brian,

We received your chain back this morning and have taken time to inspect it. (please see attached pictures)

It is noticeable that multiple o-rings are either missing or hanging out due to force being applied to the outer plates in those particular positions. There are marks on the outer edges of the corresponding plates where pressure has been placed.

The loss of o-rings has happened on one side of the chain only, with no signs of external pressure being placed on the opposite side of the chain. The o-rings that are hanging out show no sign of deterioration to the rubber other than the damage from crushing.

The chain appears to have been lubricated to a satisfactory standard.

It is our policy to pursue a warranty claim with a manufacturer on behalf of our customers should we deem a product to be faulty. However in this case we feel we are unable to do so as our findings suggest the damage has been caused to the chain by incorrect wheel alignment.

Should you wish to conduct an independent test of chain you are of course welcome to do so and we can return the chain to you if necessary.

Best regards

Geoff Stubbs.

Technical Sales Advisor.

Bike Torque Racing."

Now I contend that the sprockets are in alignment, but being a cynic, I would wouldn't I. I've have checked the protrusion of the rear adjusters, and my alignment tool shows the sprockets to be in line. Can someone with more knowledge of chain than me explain how far out they would have to be to cause this effect. I've never seen this before in over 250k miles on bikes, but has any one else had a similar experience? I have looked at the rear sprocket and the wear pattern looks the same on both sides. I have asked for the chain to be returned.

Any comments?

[Tex 36,817]

If you refer back to post #3 I said "I bet he tries to make it your fault somehow.." Ta Daaa! You've had your wheels so far out of alignment you've squeezed the X rings out? Pull the other one!

He's trying to blind you with technical 'flim flam', to make you think it's your fault. Bastard.

Tell him you would like the chain back as you wish to send it direct to D.I.D for them to confirm it is genuinely of their manufacture. And if it is, you will pursue the matter directly with them. If it isn't, you will pursue the matter through trading standards as counterfeit goods and take it to the small claims court if necessary.

He's had his chance to make good. Show him you're not going to 'roll over while he tickles your tummy' but, rather, that you will bite his balls!

[shiggsy 529]

How would incorrect wheel alignment cause marks on the outer side of the plates ?

[embee 7,288]

Ermm, at risk of going against the flow, it sounds a pretty reasonable response to me.

 

The fact that all the damaged rings are on one side of the chain (as stated) is the kind of evidence I'd use to try to draw a conclusion. If the plates show evidence of heavy sprocket action on that same side only, then it would kind of support the theory of misalignment. Bear in mind he has seen only the chain, he really needed to see the chain installed on the bike but obviouisly that was not practical.

 

After setting chain alignment/slack, I always spin the wheel on the centre stand and see if the chain runs more or less centrally. It usually moves one side or the other, but if you push it across again it shouldn't return directly to the one side as soon as you turn the wheel. Ideally it shouldn't have much preference for which side it runs.

 

Maybe I'm too easy going, but personally I'd put it down to experience, my life is too short to spend time and effort and stress trying to resolve this sort of issue for the sake of the cost of a chain (or half a chain if you've had half its life out of it).

 

Whatever you decide, I hope you sort it to your satisfaction.

Edited August 12, 2016 by embee

[Andy m 23,542]

I hate to be defeatists, but I think your postage costs and stress levels will be better served by moving on and buying another brand.

 

You send someone photo’s of the laser alignment tool and a signed and witnessed report from Honda’s chief technician they’ll tell you this was done after the event.

 

Claims of “non-genuine” will be met with suggestions you send it to the factory and good luck waiting for a reply. The factory will not undermine their distributor. Claims are logged on searchable databases, so the guy in China will know what the guy in the UK told you. If it is non genuine they will discuss internally.

 

The only proof that works is if you have their approved service agent fit another and that fails in a similar distance. If this guy plays from the same book of warranty claim plays I’ve been known to use (apologies, the employees job is to do what’s best for the company), he will make this as difficult as possible, suggest you use a race fitter 200 miles away who charges £250 an hour etc.

 

You/We as consumers are small and insignificant. If you buy Regina for the rest of your life you will never equal what Honda buy from DID in an hour and by taking the Regina off the shelf the next bloke will buy DID anyway. You won’t refuse to buy another Honda because it has their chain, the Honda dealer will just look at you as if you have three heads and suggest you try another dealer. The chain manufacturers have no reason to care with things as they stand. Refusing a claim cost this guy 10 minutes.  Accepting it means days of ongoing pain as he battles through corporate systems designed to make it hard to give stuff away.

 

Your only way to hit these corporations (unless you are a Honda Manager or run a fleet of courier bikes) is through social media. Posting on here “DID are ****” does nothing, someone will come along shortly and tell you how they did 50000 miles on their BMW and never wore out the chain and DID service is brilliant because the receptionist in the dealer has big **** and made him a coffee. You influence the big corporations by building influence. The editor of MCN, some celebrity with a million followers on T**ter, the bloke who runs Moneysaving expert etc. will not get this run around.  

 

The rest of us can only take the drip-drip-drip approach and keep pointing out that big brands (for example BMW their chocolate fireguard waterpump designs) do this to us.

 

Asking for it back is part of the game you should play. If it gets lost in the post because they don’t use a signed for courier, they owe you the value of your property. If a Mr. D Duck happened to sign for it, who knows where the courier left it….

 

BTW, Did I tell you BMW’s are designed by idiots and made of chocolate and have the worst customer service since the Romans invited the Christians to see their circus?

 

Andy