DID X-ring seal failure

[Slowboy 20,458]

Thank you gentlemen,

nevertheless, following a discussion this morning, the company has very generously, as a gesture of goodwill, offered to send me a new chain which I have accepted. Therefore, I will continue to use them, Bike Torque Racing, and would recommend them for their customer service.

EmBee, like you I am a professional engineer, with over 30 years experience of maintenance, manufacture and latterly design, and in line with your excellent advice do something similar when fitting chains. I have taken as many measurements as I can while I have my bike up on the lift this morning and reckon it to be about 0.5 mm out of alignment measured from the rear of the Capped recess in the foot peg hanger and the centre of the axle and 0.3mm measured with my Moore and Wright vernier calipers from the end plates to the sliding plates. Let's say no more than 1mm out within the limitations of the measurements I am able to take.

Also the I have photographed the rear sprocket and the wear on both sides looks the same after at least 3000 miles and no more than 5000. Nevertheless the company have made a generous offer in the circumstances and should be congratulated for that. We are quick to throw brickbats and should be as quick to recognise good service.

Regards

Brian

[embee 7,288]

Hi Brian

that sounds a very good outcome. You've clearly been able to demonstrate to the retailer that you know what you're doing and I would say the retailer has done themselves a lot of good regarding PR.

 

Bike Torque Racing, well done.

 

I hope the new one behaves itself and lasts as it should. Keep us informed over the next 5k miles!

[Mike5100 2,061]

What an amazing coincidence,  I have just found a similar unusual wear pattern on my chain this morning,  In fact I took pictures which I will post later.  Now the interesting thing is that I spent a great deal of time getting the wheel aligned previously and my first thought was whoa it's gone out of alignment.  But no - I put the chain alignment tool on and it's perfect.  So what's going on?

My chain is not badly worn and no O-rings have popped out - it's only done 4000 miles - but the inside of the offside links are all polished bright as is that side of the rear sprocket teeth.  The corresponding surfaces on the other side of the chain/teeth are coated in dark lubricant.

Mike

[Tex 36,817]

Excellent. So, to reduce post #26 to the fundamentals, you stood up for yourself and they caved in. Spot on.

Those who say 'life's too short to worry about a chain' have a point, but £100 is is £100.. Especially to someone on a pension. There's also a matter of 'principal' here. As for it being pointless to try and fight the 'big boys' just as well our dad's never thought like that..

"Waste of time standing up to Hitler - let's go down the pub and watch the invasion on the big screen.."

[DaveM59 1,605]

Have a check of the chain guide on the top of the swing arm as if this has broken or is badly worn it just might play a part in diverting the chain off centre.

The chain is only under tension on the top run and as it engages with the rear sprocket at the bottom where it is 'flapping' loose and would self centre, only on the front sprocket does the chain engage under tension, hence the guide.

Another thing to make sure is that the spacers on either side of the rear wheel are on the correct sides. I haven't checked this so could be completely wrong, but if they are slightly different sizes and you have them on the wrong side, the wheel is aligned straight ahead but offset a few mm or so to one side. The manual does say to make a note where they were fitted and put back in the same place so indicating there may be a difference.

...or it could all be hogwash and just a duff chain, but as you will be removing or accessing these bits to fit a new one, it makes sense to check.

[Mike5100 2,061]

Have a check of the chain guide on the top of the swing arm as if this has broken or is badly worn it just might play a part in diverting the chain off centre.

The chain is only under tension on the top run and as it engages with the rear sprocket at the bottom where it is 'flapping' loose and would self centre, only on the front sprocket does the chain engage under tension, hence the guide.

Another thing to make sure is that the spacers on either side of the rear wheel are on the correct sides. I haven't checked this so could be completely wrong, but if they are slightly different sizes and you have them on the wrong side, the wheel is aligned straight ahead but offset a few mm or so to one side. The manual does say to make a note where they were fitted and put back in the same place so indicating there may be a difference.

...or it could all be hogwash and just a duff chain, but as you will be removing or accessing these bits to fit a new one, it makes sense to check.

Dave - you may have hit on something.  I've been bothered about the way this bike tracks right from new.  And the dealer took the wheels off to put PR4 tyres on instead of the ones supplied by Honda.  I wonder if they put the spacers back correctly.  I have a workshop manual so will see if they have different part numbers which would indicate that they are different sizes.

[Slowboy 20,458]

Have a check of the chain guide on the top of the swing arm as if this has broken or is badly worn it just might play a part in diverting the chain off centre.

The chain is only under tension on the top run and as it engages with the rear sprocket at the bottom where it is 'flapping' loose and would self centre, only on the front sprocket does the chain engage under tension, hence the guide.

Another thing to make sure is that the spacers on either side of the rear wheel are on the correct sides. I haven't checked this so could be completely wrong, but if they are slightly different sizes and you have them on the wrong side, the wheel is aligned straight ahead but offset a few mm or so to one side. The manual does say to make a note where they were fitted and put back in the same place so indicating there may be a difference.

...or it could all be hogwash and just a duff chain, but as you will be removing or accessing these bits to fit a new one, it makes sense to check.

Even though I am happy with my alignment skills, thanks for all that, this one will be checked as closely as I can manage! The chain guide is fine by the way, and within its service limits. I've held on to my friends laser tool, for when the chain goes on. I've also got my mechanical pointer tool that clamps on the rear sprocket ( and yes I did check the pointers straight!

Of course all this assumes the motor is straight in the frame and the frames straight and the swinging arm is straight ( had it from new and it's never been pranged)

Embee, any chance I could have access to a professional measuring table and 3D measuring tools.... Just for a morning...

Brian

[Mike5100 2,061]

..... nah - they are so different that even a monkey couldn't mix them up one looks from the diagram to be about  30mm long and the other only about 12 and the latter is even a different shape.  They are both described as distance collars though.

Mike

[DaveM59 1,605]

How do you know the front sprocket is in alignment with the chain guide? Can it be fitted back to front so not quite in line? Are either sprockets marked 'outside' or with a direction marker and if fitted incorrectly does it move them out of alignment?

I haven't yet tackled this on mine so I don't know, just chucking ideas into the ring...

 

 

...Brians post above while I was typing this probably already discounted this then

Edited August 12, 2016 by DaveM59

[fj_stuart 4,753]

As I understand the suppliers explanation they say pressure on the outer plate crushed the O ring. I'd say this is impossible because,

 

1. The plates are a very tight fit on the pins and won't move.

2. If they did move the rivet ends would be protruding

3. It's impossible anyway. The inner plate has an upstand to accommodate the O ring.

 

For interest I cut up an old chain today (it's raining here in Glasgow)

 

[embee 7,288]

How do you know the front sprocket is in alignment with the chain guide? Can it be fitted back to front so not quite in line? Are either sprockets marked 'outside' or with a direction marker and if fitted incorrectly does it move them out of alignment?

I haven't yet tackled this on mine so I don't know, just chucking ideas into the ring...

 

 

...Brians post above while I was typing this probably already discounted this then

The rear wheel sprocket is dished on the outside, maybe a mm or so at a guess. I think it is possible to fit it the wrong way round.

The gearbox sprocket is symmetrical. It is not however clamped by the central bolt/washer, it is free to float on the gearbox output shaft splines, maybe only half a mm or so, but it is not clamped.

From http://www.bike-parts-honda.com/pieces-honda-detail-71520-71520-NC750XAE-2014-F_15-NC+750+X+ABS.html

 

[embee 7,288]

........Embee, any chance I could have access to a professional measuring table and 3D measuring tools.... Just for a morning...

Brian

Sure, pop round and I'll open up the shed with this in it.

 

Seriously though, the last place I was at sold their old Mitutoyo machine and bought a new one. The old one went for just a couple of ££ thousand, a snip considering the price of a new one. Trouble is you need a large climate controlled room to keep it in.

[Tex 36,817]

Stuart, post #35, you're bang on the money. I liked your post and would like it twice if I could.

Brian, be very interesting to isee if the new chain, when it arrives, is the same as the old one. Or the same as a 'known' D.I.D. I suspect it's going to be one or the other..

[Tonyj 6,907]

fwiw I've noticed the rings fraying in places on my bike , the chain was replaced 8k ago . I've since been back as its been serviced for 24k and asked them to check it as I'm getting the rhythmic knock at low speed again, tech said its to be expected with a chain that done 18k , i said they replaced sprockets and chain at 16k sevice,oh ! he says . i also said the dash was changed thats why it shows different miles . he then said when did you last adjust the chain at this point i informed him i haven't and its only just been serviced 3weeks prior , to which he goes on the blackfoot and said its perfect . i did nearly burst out laughing , i shall try my man down in kent for a new appraisal

[Crofty 119]

Glad to see you got the chain problem sorted out Brian. I run the same chain and went and checked it this morning and with 15k it looks fine with no tight spots. I use a Tutoro oiler and a chain alignment tool when adjusting the chain and hope to get in excess of 20k with this chain. With modern engineering and correct installation of wheel and sprockets I find it difficult to see how competent amateur could get alignment out so bad to destroy a chain so quickly.

[larryblag 14,236]

My 750S goes in (finally) for it's 1st Service this tuesday (now 850 miles and counting). I do hope they don't mess with the chain tension, it's well within range having stretched not one bit since delivery. I put this down to either:

A. Decent chain

2. DCT

X. Both

[Tex 36,817]

Just tell them that you're happy with the chain as it is when you book it in. I don't imagine there'll be any 'issues' as you're giving them one less thing to do.