Suspension sag on 2016 bike - these look weird

[fred_jb 10,265]

I don't know where the confusion is arising unless your instructions are different to mine.  In any case the usual way these things work is that turning the adjuster screw clockwise forces a tapered needle into the oil orifice in the damper, (i.e closes the valve) progressively reducing the oil flow and thereby increasing the damping.  Turning anti-clockwise lifts the needle up and opens the oil valve.

 

As far as I know it is the standard convention to describe the amount of opening, either by turns of the screw, or clicks, with respect to the valve being closed to the fullest extent possible, i.e fully screwed down clockwise.   So when Wilburs refer to a setting of 12 clicks, they mean twelve clicks anti-clockwise from the fully closed, fully clockwise position. Note that low speed compression damping is adjusted with the blue adjuster or + shaped slots, depending on model, on the remote reservoir, and the high speed compression damping with the red or -  shaped slot.

 

On the same principle I would suggest that the rebound damping knob is turned fully clockwise when viewed from the lower end of the damper, to close the valve and maximise rebound damping, as is confirmed by the diagram in the manual.

 

It appears that Wilbers use the term "static sag" to refer to the sag due to the bike's weight alone, not including rider, which I don't think is particularly helpful. They use the term dynamic sag for when the rider is on board.

 

The pdf of the manual can be found here: http://www.mecadata.com/page_web_html/wilbers/amortisseurs/manuel_utilisateur_anglais.pdf

 

Here are pictures of the two pages:

 

 

Edited October 12, 2016 by fred_jb

[Mike5100 2,061]

Thanks Fred.

Here's a picture of page 11 from the user manual I got with my Wilbers 641.  Note that it shows the opposite directions from the image you have reproduced from their website above.  (They have sent me an email which supposedly clarifies it - I haven't got my head round it yet but will report back shortly.

[Mike5100 2,061]

Their email implies the booklet is wrong and their website is correct.  And that the number of clicks is counted from fully closed ie maximum damping.

Mike

[fred_jb 10,265]

Their email implies the booklet is wrong and their website is correct.  And that the number of clicks is counted from fully closed ie maximum damping.

Mike

That makes sense, as everything I know about how dampers work (admittedly not that much!) would lead me to believe that you have to screw the adjuster in, i.e. clockwise, in order to close down the valving and increase the damping.

[SteveThackery 3,090]

That makes sense, as everything I know about how dampers work (admittedly not that much!) would lead me to believe that you have to screw the adjuster in, i.e. clockwise, in order to close down the valving and increase the damping.

 

I concur, absolutely.  I think the picture from p11 of Mike's manual is wrong.  And I think everyone would agree that you count the clicks from fully closed (clockwise).

[Mike5100 2,061]

Thank you gentlemen 

I will scrap my experiments so far and start recording again based on what has now been established (ie starting point and direction of turn).

By the way - the Wilbers dealer reckons if rider sag at the front is 35mm and at the back is 55mm it's going to make the front ride high and throw out any sensible experiemnting.  I suggested me winding up the preload at the back so I only get 35mm of sag and he suggested another way of doing it would be to raise the fork tubes up through the yokes, Apparently it wouldn't do to just move them through by 20mm but I don;t understand why not. He suggested trying 5mm at a time.

Mike

[fred_jb 10,265]

Thank you gentlemen 

I will scrap my experiments so far and start recording again based on what has now been established (ie starting point and direction of turn).

By the way - the Wilbers dealer reckons if rider sag at the front is 35mm and at the back is 55mm it's going to make the front ride high and throw out any sensible experiemnting.  I suggested me winding up the preload at the back so I only get 35mm of sag and he suggested another way of doing it would be to raise the fork tubes up through the yokes, Apparently it wouldn't do to just move them through by 20mm but I don;t understand why not. He suggested trying 5mm at a time.

Mike

Was the spring spacer reduced in length to take account of the emulators? If so this would suggest that the new springs are possibly too strong.  If you are going to fit preload adjusters then I am assuming you will only be able to further reduce the sag with those, so I would think you need to be starting off from a position of a bit too much sag, and then use the adjusters to reduce it.  However, I'm not sure that a 20mm difference is going to throw out the geometry all that much unless it was designed around the excessive front sag you had originally.  I don't think I ever measured my front sag before I replaced the fork internals with aftermarket cartridges, and in any case my bike was the 2015 model so is probably not comparable.

 

Maybe you could reduce the length of the spacers, but assuming the springs are the correct length, I suspect that will just mean you lose some sprung suspension travel at the front, so raising the forks would be a better solution I think.

 

From my experience with my Versys I found that front sag is almost entirely down to the weight of the bike and is not changed all that much by loading up the rear with rider and even pillion, and I suspect the NC will be similar, so you don't need all that much adjustment at the front as long as you have a reasonable starting point.  I ran into a similar problem with the Versys, but that had front preload adjusters which were about halfway in as standard so I was able to back them off a bit, and eventually I also raised the forks by about 10mm, which together with a Nitron shock with stronger spring got me to near enough 50 mm sag front and rear fully loaded, which was approx 33% of the total available suspension movement.

Edited October 12, 2016 by fred_jb

[Mike5100 2,061]

Yes - that's what I would like to get to Fred - around 45 to 50mm rider sag at the front.  the Ktech springs used are right by any calculator I use and others on here have said so too (they are 0.9kg ones).  However they are an inch longer than the OEM springs - which the specialist of course knew and cut the spacer tubes down to give the sag that he wanted  TBH I think the sag he produced is spot on for the type of sportsbike setups that he is used to doing - and he was obviously very surprised to see the 55mm we got at the rear when I sat on the new Wilbers that he fitted.  He has suggested that I take the bike back and leave it with him for a few days and he will set it up via his dyno.  But for various personal reasons I can't do that.

Mike

[Guest Hati]

Mike, regarding compression damping settings: check how many clicks you have for the full range. If yours is like Fred's, you'll have 22 clicks. 12 of that is close enough to half. That is your starting point, clockwise or counterclockwise, doesn't matter. See how you like that and work your setup from there. I found Matris to be pretty much perfect on the recommended settings. Maybe you'll get lucky too.

[outrunner 4,457]

Gets a bit technical all this suspension stuff doesn't it? My 2016 ncx felt a bit poor in that department so the first thing I did was junk the tyres and fit T30 Evos which helped a bit. Next I put the rear shock up to the top preload position, and this also made it feel a bit better but not as I would like it to be. The last mod I have done is to fit Hyperpro springs to the front and dropped the forks 10mm as per the instuctions and the bike improved noticeably, front end a bit smoother over rough surfaces and slightly faster turn in which I like. Now I feel the need for a better rear shock as I am sure that this combined with setting the sag properly will make the bike as good as it gets. Let's face it, it's never going to be an out and out sportsbike as far as cornering is concerned but as I can wear out a set of Evos in 4700 miles it's not too bad.    As far as rear shocks are concerned I don't think a mega-buck unit is justified so I might try a Hagon as they are quite reasonably priced and I will post results as and when I get one fitted.

 

 

Andy.