Engine oil

[ste7ios 469]

How long an oil lasts? It depends on its usage. Every engine stresses & contaminates differently an oil.

 

Only a chemical analysis will provide you the necessary information to take a decision to alter the manufacturer's oil change rate.

 

With a quick search you may find some oil analysis reports by Blackstone labs. NC's engine performs really well!

[embee 7,288]

Stelios is spot on. I've been in engine development for 35+ years. We do oil analysis checks every 10hrs or so during a development durability test, check for wear metals, coolant/soot contamination etc.

There are 2 basic aspects as Stelios says, contamination and oil degradation.

 

Various manufacturers have toyed with service interval indicators over the years, basically a counter taking into account run time, speed, distance, temperatures, number of cold starts etc. Extended service intervals and synthetic oils have really brought about the return to specified mileages, if you can make it an annual event it tends to suit most purposes so 10k or 12k miles for a typical car is pretty sensible. There is no hard and fast rule and you always want to err on the safe side.

 

Some engines do stress the oil more, and that's one of the aspects of bikes with unit engine/transmission arrangements, the oil is being asked to do different jobs. That is one aspect of bike specific oils versus modern car engine oils, the amount of anti-wear additives suitable for high pressure contacts seen in transmission gears. Bike oils contain typically double the phosphorus levels for this reason (not in car oils for catalyst durability reasons). ....... but that's another subject altogether so let's not open that can of worms again.

 

Some engine designs do take advantage of the properties of synthetic oils, particularly the temp at the piston ring/liner interface, higher temps are better for efficiency but mineral and semi-synth oils are more prone to breakdown at these temps. The risk for the engine manufacturer is that if something other than a fully synth oil is used the engine must still be able to survive, so there is a design philosophy compromise usually to make it tolerant and "robust".

 

Seriously, don't get too hung up on it, just stick more or less to the recommended intervals and use decent branded oil suitable for the job and get on with riding it.

[Guest Cavallo]

Car oil is different , it only lubes the engine  no clutch and gears  and less revs

[Andy m 23,595]

Triumph increased the Bonnevilles service intervals from 4000 to 6000. Sent me a new service book and everything. The massive engineering development effort behind this just happened to coincide with Harley doing the same on the Sportster! 

 

I changed at 8000, once even at 10000. Nothing exploded, no one died, bike going strong at 8 years old (electric hassle and corrosion like any heavily used bike).

 

You can only sell oil to people who believe they need it.

 

Andy

Edited November 24, 2016 by Andy m

[MikeBike 5,006]

For those in the know...

Oil doesn't seem to have a use by date on the container of one year (unless Ive missed it), but once it's in the engine should be changed after a year irrespective of a lower mileage relative to the mileage service interval.

So what makes it need changing when its sat in the engine but doesn't go off when its sat in the can? And is it the same for synthetic? I'm guessing it's the contaminants in the oil act to make the oil breakdown but I don't know. I seem to remember something about winter use or standing affecting the oil.

 

I do about 8k per year so it doesn't affect me really, and I'll keep it in warranty of course for now, but after warranty issues if you say only did 4000 miles annually do you think you could stretch to biannual service without any negative consequences?

[Guest Lenp]

While I have been laid up after having 2 operations on my new knee replacement,don't ask why TWO, I had a mate ride my NC 750x2014 to a local one man outlet,Honda trained, garage ,he was only 10 minutes away,first time I had heard about him ,had a MOT ,service 8000 miles (oil Castro 10/30 ) oil filter chain greased,adjusted, foot brake lowered just a bit to accommodate my leg  WHEN I can get on the bike (last time I rode was 1st of May) when my mate rode it back he said it seemed a different bike, anyway the grand total was £130, first smile on my face for awhile....Ride Safe..

[ste7ios 469]

17 hours ago, MikeBike said:

For those in the know...

Oil doesn't seem to have a use by date on the container of one year (unless Ive missed it), but once it's in the engine should be changed after a year irrespective of a lower mileage relative to the mileage service interval.

So what makes it need changing when its sat in the engine but doesn't go off when its sat in the can? And is it the same for synthetic? I'm guessing it's the contaminants in the oil act to make the oil breakdown but I don't know. I seem to remember something about winter use or standing affecting the oil.

 

I do about 8k per year so it doesn't affect me really, and I'll keep it in warranty of course for now, but after warranty issues if you say only did 4000 miles annually do you think you could stretch to biannual service without any negative consequences?

Most companies recommend a shelf life of up to 5 years even for fully synthetic to be covered... Elf, Valvoline and others they don't... They're ok if the unopened bottle is stored in optimal conditions.

 

In the engine the problem is the contamination and humidity.

[embee 7,288]

The year in the engine thing isn't a hard and fast rule, it won't suddenly explode after 13 months.

 

As discussed it's just a catch-all reminder that it is of benefit to change it at reasonable intervals. The manufacturers can't ask you to send samples off to have oil analysis done and if the TBN is below a certain value or the iron content is above something else then change it, they have to keep things simple. Don't lose sleep over it, I've certainly had oil in engines for a couple of years if the use and conditions don't warrant a change yet.

 

Of course there's an element of marketing involved, it's good for the oil companies and good for the service shops, but it is also a good idea for the sake of the vehicle and with extended warranties the manufacturers want some sort of assurance that the vehicle isn't being neglected and abused.

[Tex 36,817]

Added to which, fresh oil and new filter(s) is the single, easiest and cheapest thing you can do to promote and protect the longevity of your engine. If you think oil is expensive get a quote for an engine re-build..

[Reckless 945]

These days not many cars share engine oil with the gearbox.

My brother in law always used Mobil 1 in his BMW R100 when he did an oil change that oil went into his car, a leyland maestro for round two

[Guest Mac750]

Depends on how long you want the vehicle, is it yours or one of a fleet. ? If it's mine oil is a cheap mechanic and I change it twice a year in a car minimum. If it's leased and goes back in three or four years then as a fleet manager I would want the cheapest servicing and down time I can get and don't care how worn it is in four years it will be someone else's problem. 

[Guest Mac750]

An old saying is "oil is a cheap mechanic."  No doubt it comes from when engines were worn out by 50,000 miles, the engineering and oils were less precise in mass manufacture than they are today. So it was prudent to change the oil regularly. Especially in engines that shared the same engine and gearbox oil. Every 4,000 miles was the norm. 

 

Today a modern car engine will cover 100,000 miles and still be good for at least another 50,000 without worry. It depends on the type of use the engine is put too. Lots of long motorway runs is better than short journeys. If used for short runs only I would change the oil more often at 6,000 or six months. Regular daily motorway trips 12,000 if that's what the hand book recommends but with frequent level checks.

But with motorcycles I changed the oil and filter more regularly. 

Mostly because the bikes I rode was of an older design both Japanese and European and mostly these older engines was spinning at high rpm.

I was surprised at the NC 750 quoted figure of 8,000 miles and too be honest the NC 750 is a long term keeper for me and old habits die hard, so I will still change oil and filter every 4,000 miles. I find it oddly a pleasure to do, working on bikes is very relaxing when it's just routine servicing. A big mug of tea the radio on and I'm a happy chap. 

 

[Andy m 23,595]

Every oil change involves running dry for a few seconds then at low pressure for a few more. Filter spigots will be designed with so many changes in mind. You can change oil too often as well as not often enough. 

 

Andy

[Guest Mac750]

3 hours ago, Andy m said:

Every oil change involves running dry for a few seconds then at low pressure for a few more. Filter spigots will be designed with so many changes in mind. You can change oil too often as well as not often enough. 

 

Andy

Never had an engine fail in 45 years of motoring and I'm a high miles guy having been on the road most of my working life. 

I put good engine life down to good clean oil on a regular basis.  My dad ran wagons ERF, AEC and Scamells long after the rest had gone the way of all things and firms started using Leyland Buffalows and Guy Warriors. Again lots of regular oil changes,  he made sure he got the last penny out of his investment, those units must have gone to Mars and back a fair few times. Old habits and all that. 

 

Just out of interest for the truckers in the forum, The last to use the old 1950s Scammels on a regular commercial business was my dads friend Sidney Harrison, running out of Tinsley.  They hauled coiled wire to Birmingham on a trombone trailer.  He even made it into Commercial Motor Magazine as those tractor units was still being used in the late 1980s. I think Sid must have passed away by now, his brother was Wilfred who's also had a haulage business. His son was Willie Harrison the champion Gold top formular 1 stock car driver.

As a lad I drove his Chevy engined stock car around Bel Vue track sat in my dad's lap, very happy times.  Willie Harrison was a real nice guy  it was with him I sat as a passenger going up the new M1 and we did over a ton in a souped up Ford Consul. Back then that was going some . 

[Guest Bob]

On 24/11/2016 at 11:00, ste7ios said:

How long an oil lasts? It depends on its usage. Every engine stresses & contaminates differently an oil.

 

Only a chemical analysis will provide you the necessary information to take a decision to alter the manufacturer's oil change rate.

 

With a quick search you may find some oil analysis reports by Blackstone labs. NC's engine performs really well!

 

The analysis I had done at the 8,000 mile interval indicates that you shouldn't extend the first proper service interval from 600-8000 miles. Still a fair amount of bedding in wear from the levels of aluminium evident and the oil has thinned to be out of spec. so has been taking quite a battering. Pink on this table is "Bad", yellow is "marginal".

 

I use a good quality synthetic oil. It may be that after 16,000 miles I'll be able to extend the intervals; I'll know more when I next take a sample. On my TDM I found I could significantly extend the service intervals from the recommended, which in the long run saved money. It may be that the NC750 enjun is tough on oil and intervals can't be extended; I like to find these things out for certain rather than trust "wot bloke down the pub sed". As Ste7ios and Embee say, every enjun's different.

 

The silicon is interesting 'cos it shouldn't be there! I did ask for the air filter to be checked, but I have my doubts as to whether or not it was. If silicon is still there next time round, there has to be a leak somewhere, or the OE air filter is just a bit crap! Or despite assurances it wasn't actually checked! Oil analysis can tell you more than just what's happening with the oil.

 

[Guest Captainbeaky]

I've read this with interest. I've moved to a warm climate (Madeira) and was wondering about changing to 10w40 too.

I think I'll give it a go.

 

I changed the XR250 to the heaviest on the chart in the workshop manual 20w50 last summer, as I was doing some high speed commuting when my BMW GS broke. When cold in the uk ( circa 5 degrees) , she was a pain to start and the clutch is a pig - very draggy when I took it for MOT last month. Now she is out here, where ambient is typically 20 degrees, she starts easily, and runs very sweetly indeed, so maybe the slightly thicker 10w40 wouldn't be a bad idea for my NC.

 

 

[Guest Captainbeaky]

Ooh - I like the oil analysis - thanks for sharing it.

Is that available to us punters or is it a works thing?

 

it would be interesting to put some of the classic car oil samples through that...

 

 

 

[Guest Bob]

5 hours ago, Captainbeaky said:

Ooh - I like the oil analysis - thanks for sharing it.

Is that available to us punters or is it a works thing?

 

it would be interesting to put some of the classic car oil samples through that...

 

 

 

Available to anyone, just Google it and a few will turn up.

 

When I was working as a plant engineer we ran a system of predictive maintenance; every gearbox on every motor in the plant was regularly analysed. It meant we spotted problems before they happened. We had a target of less than 1% downtime due to engineering on a plant that ran 24/7 for 52 weeks of the year. Oil analysis was a big part of achieving that.

[embee 7,288]

Oil analysis is a great tool if you know how to interpret it. You really need a baseline for the virgin oil sample too, plus a run chart of progress, and ideally a comparison database of similar engines.

 

Alternatively just change the oil.

[Tex 36,817]

38 minutes ago, embee said:

Oil analysis is a great tool if you know how to interpret it. You really need a baseline for the virgin oil sample too, plus a run chart of progress, and ideally a comparison database of similar engines.

 

Alternatively just change the oil.

 

Exactly that!

[Guest Hati]

Question for Murray on this topic, although I'm pretty sure it has been answered before, I just can't find it.

 

Is it safe to assume that new engine oil, such as the Castrol Power 1 Racing (sealed in the container it sells in) will not deteriorate in any shape or form from sitting on the shelf for a few months, maybe a year?

[embee 7,288]

Never assume anything ........... but yes, it'll be fine. Stelios answered it a few posts up, shelf life in the region of 5yrs typically.

Edited December 28, 2016 by embee