What Brand of Oil are we all using?

[RC166 694]

Baldy Dave, As long as the drain plug and filter hasn’t been over tightened, you should be fine. Take it nice and easy, use good fitting sockets or spanners, keep everything nice and clean, don’t over tighten! 

[DaveStewart 267]

4 hours ago, Grumpy old man said:

Is it a Dct?  Apparently they work best on the reccomend 10-30. I'd be tempted to stick to that but if it's a manual then 10-40 works fine for mine.

Yeh DCT Grumps

[t5er 74]

Hello hondaboy

I would recommend Smith and Allan products.I have been using their 10-40 synthetic for many miles now with no problems.The big issue about oil is if you follow the manufacturers guidelines regarding oil specifications, nearly all meet them.The opinions of individuals can only be varified if they have stripped and examined the engine to see how their oil has performed.

I however made my decision to use Smith and Allan because the actually blend and supply the product,they have been trading since 1925,they are a British company, they sell their oil in 5 litre cans and are good value.

I use my NC 700sa all year round and change the oil and filter every 4000 miles.This may be totally unnecessary but who can honestly know.In my opinion changing oil and filter frequently is the only way I can help the metally bits from rubbing together and using S and A keeps the cost down

Ride safe

[Andy m 23,543]

Over frequent changes do more harm than good. The time the oil circuit is at low pressure, the number of cycles the drain plug is going through as well as the stuff St. Greta's mob will whine about. Mostly you are just pouring money away, but don't kid yourself that taking the whole box of pills must be better than the recommended dose. 

 

If you want to know if your use matches what Honda oil salesmen say it'll cost you £35 to find out https://www.millersoils.co.uk/oil-analysis/ or https://www.theoillab.co.uk/product-category/oil-testing/engine/

 

Andy 

[Trev 18,662]

Getting ready for a a couple of services and MOT's that are coming up I noticed today that my Africa Twin hasn't been serviced since Aug 2018

Several factors (the use of a few other bikes, 2019 was a hectic year as negotiating sale of my business Sept 2018 to July 2019, in NZ for 3 months beginning of 2020 then Covidalisation for the next 2 years) have limited the miles to just over 6k in that time, mainly 50 - 500 mile trips. The oil level never drops and colour still looks ok on the dipstick but I will change it this year along with both filters and the spark plugs, which are original. Tempted to drop the brake fluid but still looks ok and brakes perform well so will probably lave that until Winter time

 

In answer to which brand of oil I'll use, oops, no idea 

 

[poldark 1,512]

51 minutes ago, Trev said:

 

In answer to which brand of oil I'll use, oops, no idea 

 

 

Thanks for the (in)valuable contribution 🤣🤣🤣

Edited May 1, 2022 by poldark

[HondaBoy 24]

On 30/04/2022 at 14:28, Grumpy old man said:

Is it a Dct?  Apparently they work best on the reccomend 10-30. I'd be tempted to stick to that but if it's a manual then 10-40 works fine for mine.

Agreed - 10-30 Fully Synth on the DCT too. 

[HondaBoy 24]

On 01/05/2022 at 14:21, Andy m said:

Over frequent changes do more harm than good. The time the oil circuit is at low pressure, the number of cycles the drain plug is going through as well as the stuff St. Greta's mob will whine about. Mostly you are just pouring money away, but don't kid yourself that taking the whole box of pills must be better than the recommended dose. 

 

If you want to know if your use matches what Honda oil salesmen say it'll cost you £35 to find out https://www.millersoils.co.uk/oil-analysis/ or https://www.theoillab.co.uk/product-category/oil-testing/engine/

 

Andy 

Andy I agree with you. I think people do

oil changes for the sake of doing oil changes. Unless you are riding an older bike or something like a Carb engine , modern bikes don’t require frequent changes (thankfully in my opinion!). Change the oil at the manufacturers recommendations intervals. Check it weekly (at least). If it looks anything other than golden consider changing it sooner. I stick to these principles and never had an issue with oil. 

Edited May 4, 2022 by HondaBoy

[Johnnie Mototrans 2,766]

Oil is cheap.

Even really expensive oil is cheap.

Engines are expensive.

Even really cheap engines are expensive.

[Xactly 5,419]

On 01/05/2022 at 14:21, Andy m said:

Over frequent changes do more harm than good. The time the oil circuit is at low pressure, the number of cycles the drain plug is going through as well as the stuff St. Greta's mob will whine about. Mostly you are just pouring money away, but don't kid yourself that taking the whole box of pills must be better than the recommended dose. 

 

If you want to know if your use matches what Honda oil salesmen say it'll cost you £35 to find out https://www.millersoils.co.uk/oil-analysis/ or https://www.theoillab.co.uk/product-category/oil-testing/engine/

 

Andy 

Yes, I agree 100% with that. A good case in point is the RE UCE 500/535 motor. There are lots of threads on the various forums about the soft oil drain plug threads stripping out, often as a result of dealer servicing. They really are cheese-like and are directly cut into the alloy crankcase. Coupled with an obsession with changing the oil every five minutes and the tendency of some to over-tighten them (especially the little bolts that fasten the oil strainer) it’s no wonder that they strip. I’d be very circumspect about buying a used UCE bike - a lot have done so only to find a bodged drain plug. Even done correctly the drain plug threads wear out, so unnecessary changes are unwise. That said it was interesting to see what was in the strainer when I did my own first service……I think the post early Himalayan production lines are a bit better than the blacksmith benches they used then.

BTW My brother told me recently that when RE dealer did the first service on his new Meteor at 300 miles (IIRC) they found a warped rear disc. Unbelievably they charged him £70 for a replacement blaming him for it! Good argument for forgetting the warranty and servicing it yourself in my book.

 

[t5er 74]

On 04/05/2022 at 17:45, HondaBoy said:

Andy I agree with you. I think people do

oil changes for the sake of doing oil changes. Unless you are riding an older bike or something like a Carb engine , modern bikes don’t require frequent changes (thankfully in my opinion!). Change the oil at the manufacturers recommendations intervals. Check it weekly (at least). If it looks anything other than golden consider changing it sooner. I stick to these principles and never had an issue with oil. 

Hondaboy

can you please explain what the reason is for more frequent oil changes on "something like a Carb engine". I  am afraid I dont understand what the difference would be and would like to learn more

ride safe

 

[t5er 74]

On 05/05/2022 at 12:11, Xactly said:

Yes, I agree 100% with that. A good case in point is the RE UCE 500/535 motor. There are lots of threads on the various forums about the soft oil drain plug threads stripping out, often as a result of dealer servicing. They really are cheese-like and are directly cut into the alloy crankcase. Coupled with an obsession with changing the oil every five minutes and the tendency of some to over-tighten them (especially the little bolts that fasten the oil strainer) it’s no wonder that they strip. I’d be very circumspect about buying a used UCE bike - a lot have done so only to find a bodged drain plug. Even done correctly the drain plug threads wear out, so unnecessary changes are unwise. That said it was interesting to see what was in the strainer when I did my own first service……I think the post early Himalayan production lines are a bit better than the blacksmith benches they used then.

BTW My brother told me recently that when RE dealer did the first service on his new Meteor at 300 miles (IIRC) they found a warped rear disc. Unbelievably they charged him £70 for a replacement blaming him for it! Good argument for forgetting the warranty and servicing it yourself in my book.

 

Hi Xactly

I am feeling this topic has gone a little off the point but regrding you post I was curious to know what was in the strainer.....

ride safe

[Xactly 5,419]

3 hours ago, t5er said:

Hi Xactly

I am feeling this topic has gone a little off the point but regrding you post I was curious to know what was in the strainer.....

ride safe

Bits of workshop rag, lots of magnetic swarf (probably piston rings wearing in), gasket sealant. The amount of debris reduced at successive changes until the main and some gearbox bearings went, then I got a heap of oily metallic swarf again.

[Xactly 5,419]

3 hours ago, t5er said:

Hondaboy

can you please explain what the reason is for more frequent oil changes on "something like a Carb engine". I  am afraid I dont understand what the difference would be and would like to learn more

ride safe

 

The reason is that carb- engined bikes usually run richer and the fuel mixture is less precisely controlled. Often a choke or tickler is needed to start the engine from cold. The oil becomes more acidic and breaks down more quickly, as evidenced by the way it blackens much sooner.

[t5er 74]

Thanks Xactly for the quick reply to both questions.

I am afraid they have raised more questions, please may I ask.....The fuel and carburation are to my understanding seperate from the lubrication system.Unless the engine is worn and petrol is passing the rings in the bore or the valve stem seals have failed why should petrol enter the lubrication system.

The discovery with your Himalayan would have had me wondering "what have I done", buying it.(I hope a satifactory outcome was reached).Do you still own one?

ride safe

 

[Xactly 5,419]

12 hours ago, t5er said:

Thanks Xactly for the quick reply to both questions.

I am afraid they have raised more questions, please may I ask.....The fuel and carburation are to my understanding seperate from the lubrication system.Unless the engine is worn and petrol is passing the rings in the bore or the valve stem seals have failed why should petrol enter the lubrication system.

The discovery with your Himalayan would have had me wondering "what have I done", buying it.(I hope a satifactory outcome was reached).Do you still own one?

ride safe

 

Fuel and oiling systems are indeed different. Most engine wear occurs when the engine is cold, partly because to start an engine requires the mixture to be richer than is needed for normal running when the engine is up to temperature. At low temperatures condensation is produced and although the rings seal out most of this they don’t fully seat until the engine is warm - that is why compression tests need to be done on a warm engine and why an engine with a kickstart often appears to have low compression when kicked over cold. It is this condensation that gradually turns the oil acidic - the more a bike is used for short journeys the sooner the oil becomes contaminated. 
EFI allows much more precise fuelling so mitigates the effects of cold wear to some extent.

 I didn’t have a Himalayan; I had a C5 Classic 500. Mine was made in 2015 before RE introduced modern production lines and assembly methods. They were a bit hit and miss before then; mine was a miss….AFAIK the EFI Himalayans, after the debacle of the original carb Indian home market ones, are ok, certainly the current ones.

[t5er 74]

Thanks again Xactly for your reply.

My main concerns were raised by Andy m which highlighted very valid points regarding too frequent oil changes. I investigated to a point but the pro"s to me seem to outweigh the cons. Even your explainations veer me to more frequent changes especially as the 50000 mile mark is near and I am sure the engine is now run in.

My apologies to all for again "hijacking" the post and going somewhat off topic but I love to hear about any way that keeps my NC in fine fettle and there is always something to learn

Ride safe

[outrunner 4,457]

I would not worry unduly about oil changes, my 750x has done 72000 miles and never uses a drop of oil between 8000 mile services.

 

 

Andy.

[Xactly 5,419]

8 minutes ago, outrunner said:

I would not worry unduly about oil changes, my 750x has done 72000 miles and never uses a drop of oil between 8000 mile services.

 

 

Andy.

I don’t either on a liquid-cooled Honda. 

[HondaBoy 24]

On 22/05/2022 at 15:20, t5er said:

Hondaboy

can you please explain what the reason is for more frequent oil changes on "something like a Carb engine". I  am afraid I dont understand what the difference would be and would like to learn more

ride safe

 

Yep - absolutely - Good example being an older Honda Innova small carb 125 engine. Similar to the C90, I find these require much more regular oil changes. As Xactly has already explained to you above, these bikes run richer and the oil blackens much quicker in my experience. I think the answer you’re trying to obtain is one of a scientific response which I am sure someone with advanced professional mechanical engineering knowledge will be able to answer. 

[Andy m 23,543]

57 minutes ago, HondaBoy said:

... a scientific response which I am sure someone with advanced professional mechanical engineering knowledge... 

Not sure you can call this advanced but:

 

Soot makes stuff go black and is a poor lubricant. 

Burn a barely metered mixture (jet over a bucket making a spray) using a slow variable spark (Frankenstein style brass switches arcing and wobbling about) and you get soot. 

The piston and valve sealing has to allow for expansion so is imperfect, so soot meets oil. 

Aircooled tolerances are higher, old technology like bushes create local hot spots

A C90 is working much harder at 30 mph than an NC750 and holds less oil. 

 

A 1950's technology, small bike will have lower service intervals and a shorter life. 

 

Then there is how service intervals are set. Engineers come up with tables of figures. An NC ridden in Bangkok will need the oil changing sooner than one ridden between Oslo and Stockholm where there is less heat, less traffic, lower humidity, less hard acceleration etc. These tables blow the minds of shiney suit men. Then they have a cunning plan. Lets use the Bangkok number worldwide. Our customers know it's been done in time and well we'll just have to live with that extra profit our dealers will make. There again, out competition is 2000 miles shorter, so better we follow them so multi franchise dealers don't get confused and damn the extra profits, we'll just have to give ourselves a bonus and buy Porsches. 

 

If the St. Greta cultists had a brain they'd be getting oil analysed and telling people that most can safely double their service intervals. 

 

Andy 

 

Edited May 27, 2022 by Andy m

[Steve Case 955]

I used to run a 1.9TDI estate, those engines were prehistoric and produced more soot than a soot factory. Miraculously this engine could run up to 24,000 miles between oil changes and lasted fine until I sold it on at 160,000 miles.

 

I suspect our NC engines will be fine with a yearly oil change, and I expect well over 100,000 miles out of it.