Every 5th or 6th start it doesn't

[Steve Case 955]

Its a strange one but every 5th or 6th start the relay clicks but the starter doesn't turn.

Every other time it starts first go so unlikely to be battery.

It happens on both center or side stand which shouldn't stop it starting as far as I'm aware.

The dash lights up fine so unlikely to be the ignition, not noticed the dash flicker either so possibly not a momentary loss of power either.

I not checked the neutral light so may be the sender, will look in the morning.

Basically need a check list of possible indicators to the cause.

[davebike 943]

Lots of miles or lots of starts?

Could be dirty or worn starter brushes

Other intermitant starter moter issues are starter relay clicking but not connecting  and lose nut on starter terminal 

Yes I seen all three on other on other Honda's

 

multimeter on output of relay would cheak that but I bet it a barsteward to get it to fail to order!

 

 

Edited August 16, 2023 by davebike

[Steve Case 955]

I will have a look at 2 of those on the weekend.

I guess brushes probably mean a starter replacement

Its 60k so not massive mileage, not a courier so at most 4 or 5 starts a day but normally just 2.

[Hickky 3,131]

Every 5th or 6th start it doesn't

I am sorry to be a bit pedantic, but it can't not start every 5th or 6th start. You should have said Every 5th or 6rh starting attempt..............

[davebike 943]

Quote

guess brushes probably mean a starter replacement

NO

 

Both Honda and pattern sorces.  Honda are about £30  and easy to fit, well for me! Patern require a BIG soldering iron and some skill

Did a set a few weeks ago OK 90's CB500 but very much the same

[Andy m 23,543]

Is the starter motor case visible accessible? Try a jump lead from the motor case to a chunky bit of frame as near to the battery as you can get. The earth is a big factor in them not turning. Had a double fault on a Triumph back in the 00's, battery -ve to frame cable and the front face of the starter motor gunked up. Stripping it to find it'll run perfectly on the bench with the new brushes still in their packet is one of those head scratching moments. 

 

Andy

[jeremyr62 2,559]

It does sound like the bushes. Had similar symptoms on a VF500 starter motor and a clean and bushes replacement fixed it. 

[Steve Case 955]

Thanks all, starter is pretty visible so access and checking are fairly straightforward.

Live is easy reach under a rubber cover, earth is thru the body and i would assume 2 bolts at the back and the alternator cover to release the starter.

Reason i assumed replacement is that not all manufacturers would make the brushes available, i will check the online microfiches.

Cheers again.

[Steve Case 955]

ok about £45 for springs and brushes.

Is the sprag clutch easy to get off?

[davebike 943]

I don't the the clutch is involved  the starter itself just held by two bolts and the + wire  then pulls out  You may need to perswade it I use a plastic drift and mallet !

 

[Steve Case 955]

Oh right thats useful, thanks Dave

Put something up here when i sus out whats happening.

[Steve Case 955]

Yup done, starts on the button 1st time.

Cheers everyone

[Scootabout 2,252]

Did you need any new parts?  FWIW - I may have posted this before - my starter problem on a recent trip to France turned out to be some combination of dirty internals in the starter motor and poor earthing. No parts needed.  But it was a motor with 20k miles on, not 60k. Mine has been fine since, in the about 1000 miles I've done. 

[Steve Case 955]

I bought 2 pairs of brushes, prob about £40

[Steve Case 955]

Righto update time... knew i shoulda waited before saying all was good.

Ran to Edinburgh and back over the bank holiday weekend, started first time all the time.

Weds morning going to work and 'click' and that was it. Checked main fuse which was good and shorted across the relay terminals which spun the motor, a new relay arrived today.

I can only surmise the worn brushes caused damage to the relay terminals and it finally cried enough.

I have to say i'm really glad it didn't pack up during the trip to Scotland!

[Scootabout 2,252]

It's not until the starter motor ceased to work that I realised how dependent I am on the things.  If only bikes had kick-starts as backup, still...

[Andy m 23,543]

No reason you can't bump a modern bike. The only "trick" is to press the starter button as you drop the clutch to wake up any electronics waiting for the signal.

 

Andy

[Gringo 5,109]

9 hours ago, Scootabout said:

It's not until the starter motor ceased to work that I realised how dependent I am on the things.  If only bikes had kick-starts as backup, still...

I have a kick starter on my 250G5. But, unfortunately, because of the pattern silencer I can't use the darn thing. Not that I've had to. Yet. [That's torn it!]

[Argyll 1,334]

I used to love kick starting my G5. Rarely used the button.

[steeve139 98]

I wish kickstarters returned as well.  I know that when we press the start button all the elctronics knows we want it to start so they can adjust the ignition and fuelling to maximise the probability of a start.  Kickstarted bikes generally had carburettors - which are mechanical and thus live all the time.

 

I think modern bikes are bigger and heavier than old bikes - so us old dodders will find new bikes harder to bump start than old bikes - before we add in the need to press the start button got get the electronics to play ball.

 

Oh, and of course, my Forza has the DCT automatic transmission.  I don't know how the first gear clutch works, but I wouldn't be surprised if bump starting a DCT bike was impossible.

 

For a CB500X, a kick start should be perfectly viable.

 

And I know that this post has completely ignored the value of being able to press a button half way across a junction, to recover from a stall, but I'd still like the right bike to have a kickstart lever.  Would it be cheaper?  Would it be lighter?  Would it be more reliable?

 

It is OK for some bikes to be like 2 wheeled cars (I ride a Forza after all), but some bikes should be like bikes.  Kickstarts should be OK on certain styles of bikes.

[Andy m 23,543]

A kicker has that proper motorbike feel 👍

 

Especially a big @#$%^&* with a decompressor.

 

A bit like making tea with leaves, just the proper ceremony.

 

Andy

[Steve Case 955]

Hmmm pretty sure i have no kickstart and i ain't gonna try bumpstarting an auto.

If i really needed i could jump it across the start relay (or give myself an afro!).

Once the old relays off i'll open it to look at the contacts and see if they are burnt or pitted.

[Steve Case 955]

My dads bike...

500cc's of proper single with a really short kickstart!

Its not called the knack for nothing.

[Scootabout 2,252]

2 hours ago, steeve139 said:

 

I think modern bikes are bigger and heavier than old bikes - so us old dodders will find new bikes harder to bump start than old bikes - before we add in the need to press the start button got get the electronics to play ball.

I didn't know about the need to press the starter button, and I wonder if some fellow riders did when they attempted to bump start my bike on the Alps trip, as it didn't work.

[Andy m 23,543]

9 hours ago, Scootabout said:

I didn't know about the need to press the starter button, and I wonder if some fellow riders did when they attempted to bump start my bike on the Alps trip, as it didn't work.

It's an unknown on most bikes. On an Enfield, designed for a kick start the FI and ignition wake up when there is any power, so battery or alternator. On say a BMW there are sequences where it powers up, the needles flick across, it scrolls "Good morning Dave" across the display of whatever. Pushing the button, with power coming from a turning alternator starts the power up sequence or not as the case may be.

 

Andy