Steve Case 955 Posted August 15, 2023 Share Posted August 15, 2023 Its a strange one but every 5th or 6th start the relay clicks but the starter doesn't turn. Every other time it starts first go so unlikely to be battery. It happens on both center or side stand which shouldn't stop it starting as far as I'm aware. The dash lights up fine so unlikely to be the ignition, not noticed the dash flicker either so possibly not a momentary loss of power either. I not checked the neutral light so may be the sender, will look in the morning. Basically need a check list of possible indicators to the cause. Link to post
davebike 943 Posted August 16, 2023 Share Posted August 16, 2023 (edited) Lots of miles or lots of starts? Could be dirty or worn starter brushes Other intermitant starter moter issues are starter relay clicking but not connecting and lose nut on starter terminal Yes I seen all three on other on other Honda's multimeter on output of relay would cheak that but I bet it a barsteward to get it to fail to order! Edited August 16, 2023 by davebike 5 1 Link to post
Steve Case 955 Posted August 16, 2023 Author Share Posted August 16, 2023 I will have a look at 2 of those on the weekend. I guess brushes probably mean a starter replacement Its 60k so not massive mileage, not a courier so at most 4 or 5 starts a day but normally just 2. Link to post
Hickky 3,131 Posted August 16, 2023 Share Posted August 16, 2023 Every 5th or 6th start it doesn't I am sorry to be a bit pedantic, but it can't not start every 5th or 6th start. You should have said Every 5th or 6rh starting attempt.............. 1 Link to post
davebike 943 Posted August 17, 2023 Share Posted August 17, 2023 Quote guess brushes probably mean a starter replacement NO Both Honda and pattern sorces. Honda are about £30 and easy to fit, well for me! Patern require a BIG soldering iron and some skill Did a set a few weeks ago OK 90's CB500 but very much the same 1 Link to post
Andy m 23,543 Posted August 17, 2023 Share Posted August 17, 2023 Is the starter motor case visible accessible? Try a jump lead from the motor case to a chunky bit of frame as near to the battery as you can get. The earth is a big factor in them not turning. Had a double fault on a Triumph back in the 00's, battery -ve to frame cable and the front face of the starter motor gunked up. Stripping it to find it'll run perfectly on the bench with the new brushes still in their packet is one of those head scratching moments. Andy 1 Link to post
jeremyr62 2,559 Posted August 17, 2023 Share Posted August 17, 2023 It does sound like the bushes. Had similar symptoms on a VF500 starter motor and a clean and bushes replacement fixed it. Link to post
Steve Case 955 Posted August 17, 2023 Author Share Posted August 17, 2023 Thanks all, starter is pretty visible so access and checking are fairly straightforward. Live is easy reach under a rubber cover, earth is thru the body and i would assume 2 bolts at the back and the alternator cover to release the starter. Reason i assumed replacement is that not all manufacturers would make the brushes available, i will check the online microfiches. Cheers again. 1 Link to post
Steve Case 955 Posted August 17, 2023 Author Share Posted August 17, 2023 ok about £45 for springs and brushes. Is the sprag clutch easy to get off? Link to post
davebike 943 Posted August 18, 2023 Share Posted August 18, 2023 I don't the the clutch is involved the starter itself just held by two bolts and the + wire then pulls out You may need to perswade it I use a plastic drift and mallet ! Link to post
Steve Case 955 Posted August 18, 2023 Author Share Posted August 18, 2023 Oh right thats useful, thanks Dave Put something up here when i sus out whats happening. Link to post
Steve Case 955 Posted August 25, 2023 Author Share Posted August 25, 2023 Yup done, starts on the button 1st time. Cheers everyone 4 Link to post
Scootabout 2,253 Posted August 25, 2023 Share Posted August 25, 2023 Did you need any new parts? FWIW - I may have posted this before - my starter problem on a recent trip to France turned out to be some combination of dirty internals in the starter motor and poor earthing. No parts needed. But it was a motor with 20k miles on, not 60k. Mine has been fine since, in the about 1000 miles I've done. Link to post
Steve Case 955 Posted August 26, 2023 Author Share Posted August 26, 2023 I bought 2 pairs of brushes, prob about £40 Link to post
Steve Case 955 Posted August 31, 2023 Author Share Posted August 31, 2023 Righto update time... knew i shoulda waited before saying all was good. Ran to Edinburgh and back over the bank holiday weekend, started first time all the time. Weds morning going to work and 'click' and that was it. Checked main fuse which was good and shorted across the relay terminals which spun the motor, a new relay arrived today. I can only surmise the worn brushes caused damage to the relay terminals and it finally cried enough. I have to say i'm really glad it didn't pack up during the trip to Scotland! 1 1 Link to post
Scootabout 2,253 Posted August 31, 2023 Share Posted August 31, 2023 It's not until the starter motor ceased to work that I realised how dependent I am on the things. If only bikes had kick-starts as backup, still... 1 Link to post
Andy m 23,543 Posted September 1, 2023 Share Posted September 1, 2023 No reason you can't bump a modern bike. The only "trick" is to press the starter button as you drop the clutch to wake up any electronics waiting for the signal. Andy 1 Link to post
Gringo 5,109 Posted September 1, 2023 Share Posted September 1, 2023 9 hours ago, Scootabout said: It's not until the starter motor ceased to work that I realised how dependent I am on the things. If only bikes had kick-starts as backup, still... I have a kick starter on my 250G5. But, unfortunately, because of the pattern silencer I can't use the darn thing. Not that I've had to. Yet. [That's torn it!] Link to post
Argyll 1,334 Posted September 1, 2023 Share Posted September 1, 2023 I used to love kick starting my G5. Rarely used the button. Link to post
steeve139 98 Posted September 1, 2023 Share Posted September 1, 2023 I wish kickstarters returned as well. I know that when we press the start button all the elctronics knows we want it to start so they can adjust the ignition and fuelling to maximise the probability of a start. Kickstarted bikes generally had carburettors - which are mechanical and thus live all the time. I think modern bikes are bigger and heavier than old bikes - so us old dodders will find new bikes harder to bump start than old bikes - before we add in the need to press the start button got get the electronics to play ball. Oh, and of course, my Forza has the DCT automatic transmission. I don't know how the first gear clutch works, but I wouldn't be surprised if bump starting a DCT bike was impossible. For a CB500X, a kick start should be perfectly viable. And I know that this post has completely ignored the value of being able to press a button half way across a junction, to recover from a stall, but I'd still like the right bike to have a kickstart lever. Would it be cheaper? Would it be lighter? Would it be more reliable? It is OK for some bikes to be like 2 wheeled cars (I ride a Forza after all), but some bikes should be like bikes. Kickstarts should be OK on certain styles of bikes. Link to post
Andy m 23,543 Posted September 1, 2023 Share Posted September 1, 2023 A kicker has that proper motorbike feel 👍 Especially a big @#$%^&* with a decompressor. A bit like making tea with leaves, just the proper ceremony. Andy 1 Link to post
Steve Case 955 Posted September 1, 2023 Author Share Posted September 1, 2023 Hmmm pretty sure i have no kickstart and i ain't gonna try bumpstarting an auto. If i really needed i could jump it across the start relay (or give myself an afro!). Once the old relays off i'll open it to look at the contacts and see if they are burnt or pitted. Link to post
Steve Case 955 Posted September 1, 2023 Author Share Posted September 1, 2023 My dads bike... 500cc's of proper single with a really short kickstart! Its not called the knack for nothing. 1 1 Link to post
Scootabout 2,253 Posted September 1, 2023 Share Posted September 1, 2023 2 hours ago, steeve139 said: I think modern bikes are bigger and heavier than old bikes - so us old dodders will find new bikes harder to bump start than old bikes - before we add in the need to press the start button got get the electronics to play ball. I didn't know about the need to press the starter button, and I wonder if some fellow riders did when they attempted to bump start my bike on the Alps trip, as it didn't work. Link to post
Andy m 23,543 Posted September 2, 2023 Share Posted September 2, 2023 9 hours ago, Scootabout said: I didn't know about the need to press the starter button, and I wonder if some fellow riders did when they attempted to bump start my bike on the Alps trip, as it didn't work. It's an unknown on most bikes. On an Enfield, designed for a kick start the FI and ignition wake up when there is any power, so battery or alternator. On say a BMW there are sequences where it powers up, the needles flick across, it scrolls "Good morning Dave" across the display of whatever. Pushing the button, with power coming from a turning alternator starts the power up sequence or not as the case may be. Andy 2 Link to post
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