Engine coming to a halt while driving only showing the oil lamp

[Guest jespersk]

Twice this has happened to me over a period of some six months while driving the engine simply has stopped/died under me, shifted to neutral gear and the red oil lamp has materialized itself in the display.

Everytime the cure has been filling up more oil, but the NC 700X has done only 10k km and my driving style is pretty conservative with moderate revs.

The engine is completely dry underneath and there is no sign of any leaks whatsoever. The exhaust shows no sign of grey or black smoke and engine sound is smooth and steady.

Anyone seen this kinda behaviour or being able to shed a light over this annoying phenonomen?

[Guest Stephen S]

It's a DCT?

How much oil?

Any signs of overheating?

[Guest jespersk]

DCT, yes.

No sign of overheating and first time I added 0.3L and later almost 0.8L.

How often do you guys check the oilstand?

[Mike5100 2,061]

It's a bit worrying if the engine dies because of low oil level - could be dangerous if it happened on the motorway.  Can this be normal?

Mike

[wozza 967]

I haven't heard of this before, it's definitely a new one on me.

[Tex 36,817]

This is actually a common 'fail safe' device used by a lot of manufacturers (including VW). The idea is that if your oil level drops to a point where damage may occur the ECU stops the engine - normally by cutting the power to the fuel pump.

Heavy oil consumption is rare in modern engines and owners have largely got out of the habit of weekly oil checks (like our fathers used to have to do).

If an engine is a known 'user' of oil, it would seem prudent to carry out a regular weekly (or monthly) check to avoid disaster. Five minutes spent checking (and adjusting if necessary) the oil level would be time well spent.

Hope this helps.

[Guest sllewji]

Would (should?) the oil warning light not come on prior to this fail-safe behaviour kicking in?

[Guest Kildareman]

Depends if the oil light is for Level or pressure.  I suspect that it is for pressure.

[embee 7,288]

Just to be clear, the oil light is for pressure, when the engine is not running there is no oil pressure so the light is on (ignition switched on). If the oil light comes on while the engine is actually running then stop it immediately, that's usually too late anyway if it really has lost all pressure. It's not unknown for pressure switches to be faulty, I had one on a BMW bike, but it's rare.

 

From what you say I understand that the engine is cutting out while riding. If it cuts out and stops, then the oil light will come on because there's no pressure when it's not running. When you check your oil level, do you have the bike upright (held upright or on a centre stand), engine stopped, dipstick resting on its threads (NOT screwed in)? Is it really using that much oil? I've not heard of any other NC using any oil.

 

Do not overfill with oil, that will do much more harm than good. I like to run it mid-way between the high/low marks.

 

I would have suspected that the engine re-starting is more to do with an intermittent electrical fault if anything, I would guess adding oil is incidental rather than a "fix", may be wrong but I'd be surprised if it really was oil level (unless it is very low indeed).  Do you get any "check engine" light when this happens? 

 

One possible thing is if the sidestand switch is playing up or the sidestand isn't fully up, if you put it down when in gear it will stop the engine. It's possible the switch is right on the point of switching and bumps cause it to momentarily operate. Just a thought.

[Guest bonekicker]

Murray when the oil dipstick shows full or low , why do you run your's on half way mark??? and not top up to full??? I don't genuinely understand.

[Guest vtwin]

Just to clear this up.

"This is actually a common 'fail safe' device used by a lot of manufacturers (including VW). The idea is that if your oil level drops to a point where damage may occur the ECU stops the engine - normally by cutting the power to the fuel pump."

Absolutely does not happen on VW group vehicles.

[Tex 36,817]

I stand corrected. I thought I had come across it on a Passat, but maybe the memory is playing tricks? It's certainly on many Rover's and Honda's. As the NC was developed with collaboration from the car side of the company I would be shocked if it was not included on our bikes.

[Guest jespersk]

When I checked the oil level the bike was held uprigth for some good seconds but the dipstick screwed in. I have learned now the dipstick should only be resting on its threads. Thank you ;-)

 

Embee, I like u thoughts on the sidestand and perhaps a electric flaw but still, some oil is used despite a pretty 'conservative' driving style.

 

No 'check engine' symbol warning prior to what happens. Out of the blue the engine just stops and the oil lamp shows. In both situations I could handle the situation rolling to the side but thats more a matter of pure luck! Now I lost my trust in the Honda.

[chris 357]

I also think the oil light coming on when the engine cuts out is not the cause of the problem, just a symptom. once the engine cuts out the oil pressure quickly drops to zero. I've become lazy about checking my oil because consumption is very low - but not zero. I started with the oil on the max level on the dip stick and when I took it for its annual service after just over 8,000km it had dropped to about the mid way mark so a slight drop in oil level on your bike would also not be that unusual.

 

When you stop and check the oil level you're probably fixing the problem temporarily because you're putting the side stand down, moving the bike to the vertical to check the oil then leaning it back on the side stand prior to restarting and folding the stand up again.

 

First thing to check is the lubrication of the side stand - they can get stiff as they get coated in dirt & grime, second is the strength of the side stand spring and third the condition of the side stand safety cut out switch.

 

The DCT side stand cuts out the engine and puts the transmission into neutral - so the fact your neutral light comes on when the engine dies also reinforces the dodgy side stand theory.

[Tex 36,817]

I'm sure (now) you guys are right. Despite scouring the 'net I can find no reference to oil level cut out switches on any Honda two wheelers - other than an obscure moped where owners are seeking to by-pass the thing as it causes the engine to cut while cornering.

My abject apologies for leading you astray. Humble pie for breakfast, I think. (Sigh)

[Guest jespersk]

Chris, certainly some good pointers, thank you. I will check and clean the sidestand spring and the safe cut switch next thing tomorrow.

This very evening Im back on the bike carrying a liter of oil in the trunk and what a joy it is riding silently through the summer night in the beautiful dark landscape here ;-)

[embee 7,288]

Murray when the oil dipstick shows full or low , why do you run your's on half way mark??? and not top up to full??? I don't genuinely understand.

I've not done professional development work on a bike engine, but with car/commercial etc engines the usual process is to determine the acceptable minimum and maximum oil levels at which the engine will operate. The max is usually a function of clearance between the crank and oil in the sump, the "windage" of the crank rotating will disturb the oil and increase the amount of air trapped in the oil ("aeration") if it is too close. It also causes drag and loss of power, plus more oil in the breather gas ("carry-over"). Oil aeration reduces the effectiveness of the lubrication, especially in the crank bearings and any hydraulic elements (cam followers etc).

 

As the engine speed increases the amount of oil "hang-up" increases, oil draining down from the cylinderhead etc, which means that the oil level in the sump drops and can reach a point where the pick-up becomes partially uncovered and air is drawn into the pump and aeration increases rapidly. This usually determines the minimum acceptable oil quantity.

 

The engine design will be such that there will be a reasonably wide range between these absolute max and min tolerable levels where aeration/drag etc is at a minimum. The dipstick will be marked such that the min and max marks are comfortably inside the min-max tolerable range, and there is a sensible practical difference between them (maybe a litre or so). This will allow the engine to survive in the field when owners under or over-fill with oil, as they inevitably will at some time. The engine will be "robust".

 

The optimum level will be a compromise between having enough to keep the temperature under the max acceptable, but not too much that the warm-up is slow and breather carry-over increases etc. Usually mid-way is pretty close to the best compromise, so if your engine doesn't use much (oil level doesn't drop rapidly) you may as well set it around the mid way point.

 

Without knowing the exact characteristics of the particular engine this is just a best guess, but it's the normal behaviour. This may seem a bit obsessive, but if you're going to set it at a particular level (e.g. max) then it may as well be around the mid way as anywhere else. That's just my view, "your mileage may vary". 

[Guest bonekicker]

Well Murray thanks for that simple explanation I am a lot wiser now ??? So ? Do I still fill the oil up to the full mark or middle mark or bottom mark ????

 

Sorry your miles too ****** clever for me to understand.

 

 

Simon humble pie with cream on taste's good, never be afraid to stand up and admit you were wrong, join the club.

[Mike5100 2,061]

That is great info Murray.  I have leaned something new and will no doubt now start spreading the word.

Mike

[Tex 36,817]

 Simon humble pie with cream on taste's good, never be afraid to stand up and admit you were wrong, join the club.

Thanks Michael. While I was scouring the 'net trying to get to the truth of the matter, I came across an interesting forum post. Some ST1300 owners were debating the exact same point and were pretty equally divided on the subject. One drained the oil from his engine and started it up to prove there wasn't a 'low oil kill' system. Now, that's dedication to being 'right'..

[embee 7,288]

Well Murray thanks for that simple explanation I am a lot wiser now ??? So ? Do I still fill the oil up to the full mark or middle mark or bottom mark ????

 

 

Well it's really up to you. Providing it's between the marks it will be fine.

 

If it will be fine at the max and still OK at the min (according to Honda), then it will be OK at the mid point, yes?

 

Don't overfill, and definitely don't run it low! Both are generally not good for it, in different ways.

[Guest bonekicker]

Murray thank you for the simplyfided version for us with less brain power than yourself, and it was nice of you to realize that for us by spending more time explaining.

 

See told you all he wasn't ****** showing off how ****** clever he is!!!!!!  He still as some repect for us slightly older and more pleasant members of this lovely flower arranging forum and he did not take the piss out of me like you other cheeky little burgers!!! 

[chris 357]

Even the best engineers get it wrong from time to time. I remember somebody came up with a theoretical calculation that they could cut the capacity of oil needed in one 3 litre engine on a SUV by nearly 2 litres to save a few bucks. They simply changed the marks on the dipstick without doing endurance tests.

In real life high speed autobahn runs the oil level dropped by more than they calculated. This caused oil pressure to drop, the result was premature piston failure and the need to recall and replace about 20,000 engines. A "saving" of a few thousand bucks became a warranty expense of several million.

Not saying who it was but it was rather major embarrassment as well as big cost and dreadful PR.

They won't be doing any more such untested bright ideas for a long time.

[michael 324]

The "engine coming to a halt," has occurred to me a few times, both on the Honda and BMW. It's either been the "kill switch," accidentally being notched by my fumbling around, (usually using my left hand to adjust my glove on my right hand. I know, I know. I should have pulled over) or the side stand cut out switch.  Some wag has actually manufactured (and yes I bought one) a plug-in by pass for the BMW unit and they were allegedly prone to failure in wet conditions.

No more sudden loss of velocity in the middle of a rain storm.

[Guest AG-Wulf]

Hello to All

 

I was making a search on this topic, when I came across this post at this forum. I know that this post has a couple years...Anyway, I'm a proud owner of a brand new NC750X DCT, with only a mere 500km.

I received it in september, due Kumamoto's earthquake, since then I've only changed the oil once, as recommended by Honda dealer, exactly one month after the purchase.

Two days ago while touring and putting some solids Km on it, I experienced the same issue, as decribed by "jespersk".

 

In my case, we're comming down a slope and very softly pulling the brakes, due  a red light sign, when suddently the bike started to choke ending up on a completely halt situation in the middle of the traffic and in a second lane. 
Imediately, I tried to restart it twice without any sucess, I ended up pulling out of the traffic into the roadside and calmly restart the bike. The rest of the tour the bike behaved as normally. At the end of the day, I passed by Honda dealer to explain them, what went wrong. They decided to plug the bike to the computer to see what really had happened, 5min. later they came with the verdict of "computer malfunction".
Obviously, I asked how to fixed it, of which they stated that "If it happens again please bring it back".

 

Frankly, I'm a bit disappointed to say the least, firstly with Honda, because I don't understand, how can they release a bike that can behave so unpredictably.

Having experienced a lost of engine on a slope, in a second lane with a big truck on my back does not ensure me reliability.

Secondly the dealer's answer sounded like a joke to me, I expected a lot more from Honda. "Let's wait to see if it happens a second time".

 

Later today, I'll try to subject the bike to a similar situation to see if it happens again. 
Meanwhile i just wanted to know if anyone has had or has been having this same situation, since the original post has a couple of years?!?