Crappy DCT or not

[embee 7,288]

I would suspect that a faulty sensor would flag an engine MIL fault, although maybe not if only momentary.

 

I would be checking connectors, but it could be a variety of circuits which could give this effect. Check even the simplest things, like whether the plug caps are properly installed, battery terminals tight, kill switch is not sticky, sidestand is retracting fully and is not sticky etc.

[Rev Ken 6,331]

It could be a software problem, which MIGHT show up if connected to your dealer's diagnostic computer, but if it is an intermittent fault as often as not it will say everything is fine!

(DSG gearboxes on cars have frequent glitches requiring resetting or new software down loads.)

[Tonyj 6,907]

Crappy dct then:0)

[Rocker66 34,444]

Crappy dct then:0)

I'm glad that you said that and not me   :)

[Tonyj 6,907]

To be honest rocker I love mine . Just pulling some tail was gonna say buy a Harley then :0)

[Guest phantom309]

i use "D" mode 80% of the time as works fine for me .with the odd "tap" down gear if i feel the need to come out of corner a bit quicker ...and "S" mode for fun quicker riding ...

[ScaredyCat 1,659]

I use manual 100% of the time... 

[Guest GBH]

Fred it sounds like you have an engine issue and it's nothing to do with the DCT, either way I would book the bike it to get it looked at by Honda because the bike should not run as you describe it.

[Guest Mi_ka]

If the engine misbehaves this would seriously affect the autobox behaviour since gearchanging timing and expected slippage would all go off their anticipated values. So the symptoms maybe exagerated by the DCT while they really reside in the engine.

With a dozen+ sensors,valves,motors over there, a sensor reading lower oil temp or pressure could also cause trouble.

It seems like the DCT looks at the general oil feed pressure and temperature as well as pressure at each clutch (and logically to calculated engine load) to determine and perform changes and if any of these parameters is intermittently estimated wrongly then the quality of changes should suffer like in your case. The PCM also looks at shaft rotation speeds so it must be also estiamting clutch engagement and condition but is too dumb to asses how a change "feels".

Or the shifter motor/clutch sloenoid valves could be having connection issues etc etc

As Embee said, do the resets and verify all connectors are properly snapped together.

Edited August 10, 2015 by Mi_ka

[kharli 100]

i reckon its possibly a fuel pump issue . I had a kangarooing cbf125 ...was the fuel pump.,a known issue that only happened in warmish weather ,replaced for free out of warranty in my case.

[Guest Mi_ka]

Nice guess - a friend diagnosed such a problem on a 690 by riding around with a pressure gauge hooked up in parallel to the feed hose - from time to time, depending on conditions and working temperature the pump could not keep proper feed pressure spiking down by a long shot. Such a mishap could translate as DCT trouble down the line while the DCT mechanism is 100%: One time it works with its parameters all OK, another time the lack of engine linearity messes up clutch engagement slippage.

Edited August 10, 2015 by Mi_ka

[Guest Firebladeaid]

Well i did the ECU reset, left mine 48 hours, well i was away so thats why :-)

For me i have noticed no difference,  still changes gear like a Massey Fergeuson loud and clunky,   Mr Honda might build robots but he aint perfected an auto gear change to match a human foot :-)

Still have the lurch/lunge so i am of to the Manx GP for a week and then I shall see if I am keeping it or trading it in !!

Its now done 1,300 miles and to tell you the truth I have not really had many days with a smile on my face !

[Guest Mi_ka]

If it was an italian steed you could expect such misbehavior from time to time but from a Honda appliance you always expect at least a "just works plus bonus smiles" performance so I am sure something is off and should be properly corrected by someone who understands what goes on in there (not an easy task - copyright reasons prohibit me from posting images and schematics over here - the DCT is uncharted territory for most motorcycle mechanics who are just getting along with motorcycle FI these days).

[Guest Mi_ka]

Thinking more on this:

 

Has the shift indicator ever blinked "-" ? This indicates an error code that should be checked through the applicable error code procedure.

If no blinking "-" ever occured, then Honda says you should firstly check the oil condition first of all. (Your current engine oil is the specified one, isn't it?)

 

a. Does it take off from standstill smoothly or does it lurch away?

 

b. If the problem affects all shifts, have the main sensors been verified? (Engine oil temperature sensor - Clutch line engine oil pressure).

 

c. Are all shifts harsh or the 1st-3rd-5th set or the 2nd-4th-6th set only?

 

If only a gear set is affected, then I would swap the clutch solenoid valves (if swappable) to see if the problem also swaps to check the primary suspect, a valve that does not follow smoothly and linearly its PWM command (to check the electrical PWM command you need an oscilloscope connected in parallel to the valve while running the bike preferably on a dyno/rolling road). And so on for the rest of the pressure and clutch rpm sensors.

 

If nothing is found in the electrical stuff the Honda says clutch clearances, needle bearings etc etc mecahnical to be checked/verified.

[embee 7,288]

It would be an easy test at not much cost to do an oil change. Did the issues start after the first service? I wonder whether they put 10W40 in it, most dealers will use a lot more 10W40 in other bikes.

 

If it was really annoying me, as it clearly is annoying you, I'd change it for some Castrol Power1 10W30 and see. Also make sure it isn't overfilled, that certainly screws up shift quality in manual boxes, and the DCT is essentially the same as a manual gearbox.

[Guest Mi_ka]

Overfilling also affects manual gearboxes?

I though overfilling affects only classic hydraulic automatics as I think it reduces the air volume in there messing up working pressures.

So such phenomena affect manuals as well?

[kharli 100]

but surely plenty other dct owners will have 10/40 and anyway that sort of sensitivity would be unacceptable ..you would get that difference between a very hot day and a freezing cold day on oil viscosity (i think) ! Im putting my 50 p on fuel pump .

 Most my motorbike performance seems to be related to me ,one day smooth as silk and others grunty like a tractor ! . Still ive used both 10/30 and 10/40 and makes no difference on my manual ,especially I think as all engines have to perform when cold start up when any oil would be thick. All said and done its a basic gearbox with nothing unusual that I can see as long as friction modifiers are not used (for clutch issues.) almost any oil would `work`

 I do not fully understand the dct /ecu/sensor operations for a really qualified response

[kharli 100]

i thought overfilling manual ..or any gearbox in a motorbike was a piston /crankcase splash causing excess strain and sometimes (not sure how )crankcase breather problems and excess oil being more likely getting past the oil rings . possibly over pressure on seals also.

[Guest Firebladeaid]

 Hi Michail, thanks for your input.

The bike is now 8 months​ old, the clunky, noisy gear change gradually got worse from about 300 miles,  I can only relate the sound and feeling to putting a manual gearbox into gear with revs at say 4000 rpm !   not every change but it does it,   no matter how hard I ride it, 

 Other days it seems ok​ for most of the time,  I can use manual and change very respectably, much smoother than auto. I could live with the g​ear change but the poor running is more off putting I have not noticed the ​the gear change indicator so will keep an eye out when it does it,  It pulls away smooth from standstill because I am using more throttle,   it only lurches when on a fixed small throttle opening, say 1/16th to 1/8th running at a constant 1400 - 2000 rpm, more noticeable when in city traffic and moving slowly in 2 gear usually.

I would hope the oil is the correct one, the service was done at a Honda dealer.

As for swapping or modding any parts, the bike is still under warranty and would have to be done by the dealer, they tried the bike and it did not lurch so said there was nothing they could do,  told them sometimes it can go a day with out doing it, you can not just do a mile and expect it to do it, but I have had it do it twice in half a mile before !!​

[Guest Firebladeaid]

 ​Hi Murray,  no problems were there from 300 miles,  no difference between service.  The clunky gearbox I suppose I can live with, the poor fueling is off putting !!

[Rev Ken 6,331]

 Hi Michail, thanks for your input.

The bike is now 8 months​ old, the clunky, noisy gear change gradually got worse from about 300 miles,  I can only relate the sound and feeling to putting a manual gearbox into gear with revs at say 4000 rpm !   not every change but it does it,   no matter how hard I ride it, 

 Other days it seems ok​ for most of the time,  I can use manual and change very respectably, much smoother than auto. I could live with the g​ear change but the poor running is more off putting I have not noticed the ​the gear change indicator so will keep an eye out when it does it,  It pulls away smooth from standstill because I am using more throttle,   it only lurches when on a fixed small throttle opening, say 1/16th to 1/8th running at a constant 1400 - 2000 rpm, more noticeable when in city traffic and moving slowly in 2 gear usually.

I would hope the oil is the correct one, the service was done at a Honda dealer.

As for swapping or modding any parts, the bike is still under warranty and would have to be done by the dealer, they tried the bike and it did not lurch so said there was nothing they could do,  told them sometimes it can go a day with out doing it, you can not just do a mile and expect it to do it, but I have had it do it twice in half a mile before !!​

Don't let your dealer fob you off. You know it isn't right, so insist they reproduce the fault, even if it means they lend you a bike for as long as it takes them to get your bike to misbehave.

[Guest Mi_ka]

I could live with the g​ear change but the poor running is more off putting

If it is not running right it will certainly not shift right as timing is off.

As suggested earlier, the fuel pump could be a prime suspect for erratic running.

 

The bike is now 8 months​ old, the clunky, noisy gear change gradually got worse from about 300 miles

Do you remember if it got ugly gradually or suddenly?

 

  not every change but it does it,   no matter how hard I ride it,  

Have you noticed if both gear sets are affected? 1st-3rd-5th vs 2nd-4th-6th

 

 

 Other days it seems ok​ for most of the time,  I can use manual and change very respectably, much smoother than auto.

Much smoother/less clunky or butter smooth? I have never ridden a DCT myself but I read of butter smooth changes like the Golf DSG I drove once.

Butter smooth manual and clunky automatic suggest PCM programming problems.

 

(Grrr - forum says too much quotes - I wil continue shortly after time limit expires)

Edited August 22, 2015 by Mi_ka

[Guest Mi_ka]

 I have not noticed the ​the gear change indicator so will keep an eye out when it does it,

If any errors have existed, they should be readable by whatever ECU programmer Honda supplies to its service centers. Do not disconnect the battery for no reason to make sure they are not erased (don't know if they do this way).

 

 

It pulls away smooth from standstill because I am using more throttle,   it only lurches when on a fixed small throttle opening, say 1/16th to 1/8th running at a constant 1400 - 2000 rpm, more noticeable when in city traffic and moving slowly in 2 gear usually.

Smooth takeoff EVERY time should indicate all ok at many DCT sensor-valves. But abrupt rolling behaviour at low speed/throttle opening could mean problems at the TPS (throttle position sensor). Big TPS problems would certainly be noticed by the ECU reporting an error code but at small throttle openings they could go unoticed. Are your changes clunky at all steady throttle openings, steady small and steady big openings?

 

 

they tried the bike and it did not lurch so said there was nothing they could do,  told them sometimes it can go a day with out doing it, you can not just do a mile and expect it to do it, but I have had it do it twice in half a mile before !!​

Intermittent problems are very difficult to properly diagnose on a short run unless lucky.

To properly check them you may need the bike on a rolling road with equipment hooked up and hand disturbing cables in order to find the hidden glitch. Like having a voltmeter on the TPS and tweaking cables/plugs. Or hooking a pocket oscilloscope on the injectors or speed or whaetver hall sensor to verify steady pulses feed.

Or hook up a fuel pressure indicator at the injectors feed and go for a ride or on a brake dyno.

All these means $$ in shop hours and it is usually not done unless you press a lot up to the point of being an annoyance.

 

A fellow with an NC700 manual model over here had intermittent 30-50% jumps in motorway consumption and Honda service centers could not find something so I arranged a braked dyno test at a friend's shop with a 4-gas analyzer hooked up to verify lambda=1 when cruising at motorway speeds to make sure all good or not (simple AFR wideband lambda sensors just look for spare oxygen and cannot be used after an exhaust catalyst while 4-gas analyzers calculate lambda from gasses concentrations and verify if intake mixture AFR is correct or not). It took one hour plus of testing on the braked dyno in various combinations of load and throttle positions to verify all good with that NC (seems the fellow is too large and too heavy on throttle so the bike reverts to open loop rich mixture at motorway speeds and mpg goes out the window in his case as the dyno mechanic found no problems, related dyno plot, AFR on motorway cruise situation, AFR right after holding WOT right after motorway cruise).

By the way, the same exceptional mechanic finally found an electrical gremlin on an RSV4 after a month of such procedures: Two injector plugs had been exchanged positions by the previous owner and injecting sequence got funky at 3500-4500 rpm only. It took weeks of oscillscope tweaking on the dyno to locate the problem as these injector harness plugs are similar and interchangeable by mistake .

 

 

 

The bike is now 8 months​ old, the clunky, noisy gear change gradually got worse from about 300 miles, 

I sincerely hope I am wrong; Extensive clunkiness for so long could mean excessive wear at clutch basket and gear cogs. If mechanical action is affected and not smooth enough after all this time, it may never recover if whatever fueling/electrical glitch is at last fixed.

Edited August 22, 2015 by Mi_ka

[Guest Firebladeaid]

Hi, sorry for the delay in responding to all the suggestions.

I have now done 2500 miles on the beast :-)  

The problem is still there, yesterday it was what you might call violent, it was a snappy jump between 1200 and 1600 rpm for about 5 seconds, does not sound a lot but in second gear and in traffic its not good, I went to watch  the Manx gp this year and got in 15 laps round the Island on the open roads,  so 500 miles + and only noticed twice but then again I was riding it harder and faster :-)  Sometimes I can make it do it by getting it in the 1200 to 1400 rpm range on a constant throttle and it will do it, sometimes it wont.

 

As for the clunky box, 30% of the time its a dream, the other 70% varies from a 1958 Foden truck to a massey ferguson tractor, its loud, clunky and felt thru the footrests :-(

 

Its  back to Honda dealer for them to check the starter solenoid on recall, I will kick their arses again

[aquaboy 105]

Bet you have some water in your petrol tank.