Intermediate/early oil change.

[Guest Rev Light]

It has become 'vogue' in the car world to extend services out to quite some mileages in the interests of saving money for the customer by reducing running costs.  

 

This is done by a bean counter sitting down with an engineer and figuring out how far they can extend the mileages between services to a point when the car will still be running either beyond the warrantee period or an arbitrary figure like 10 years/100,000 miles.  

 

Its a calculation about what they can get away with, after which all bets are off.  And who cares anyway?  Only the owners of second hand cars.  

 

That does not mean it is any good for the cars, all it means is that by that time, the car companies feel it is no longer their concern (and perhaps rightly so).  Many an older car driver now has a perfectly good car into which they need to poor oil.

 

I am wondering if this has not started to be introduced to bikes as well.

 

Motorcycles have traditionally had more regular oil changes. Sharing your oil between gearboxes and engines, is hard on the oil, as it has more jobs to do than standard car engine oil, lubrication of gears is a different job to lubrication of engine moving parts.  Which is why gearbox oil is a different formulation to engine oil, when they are separate.  And why motorcycle engine oil is a different formulation to car engine oil.

 

So I am wondering if a oil change at, say 4000 miles might be in order, or even recommended.  Not an oil and filter change, just a quick oil change.  As I wonder what state the oil is in, physically and chemically, after 8000 miles.

 

I am used to doing this with BMW Airheads, where I do alternate oil/oil+filter changes.  But that is because it is an air cooled motor, and not because it shares oil with the gearbox.  A filter only gets better at its job, not worse.  But you do have to change it eventually - as, eventually, it will get so blocked, it will be by-passed.

 

This thread is for people who expect to service their bikes by themselves.

 

Discuss.

 

Rev Light

[dazznutts 167]

Car services have been extended to when a car doesn't need a service at 600 miles like the bikes do in the case of my ford first service is after 12500 miles or one year - as with both new cars and bikes nowadays its getting more difficult to perform diy services yourself

[Guest vtwin]

Extended oil changes and servicing is powered by lease companies not wanting to pay for annual services, for example up until 2008 brake fluid service on an Audi was 2 years all of a sudden the first brake fluid change was 3 years and then every 2 years after that so in a 3 year lease there is no cost to lease companies.

[Guest Rev Light]

Yes, some cars they have even removed the sump plug so you cannot change the oil without have equipment to suck the stuff out.

 

And the fitting of under-trays is also an inconvenience.

 

At what point does it become inconvenient for the garage to do their job properly?

 

Cheers

 

Rev Light

[Guest vtwin]

Having been in the motor trade a long long time it amazes me what is not included on a major service particularly for the first 2 years, most of the checks can be carried out by a competent home mechanic. The Techs get just over an hour for a full service then it's all about up selling.

[dazznutts 167]

My ford has a 3 service cycle Minor Minor Major all costing less than what the costs for the motorcycle does i.e minor major

[kayz1 2,928]

The original BMC mini used the same oil for motor and gears, they just cut the gears to a different spec..

[Guest Rev Light]

Kayz1 - You are correct, but I bet the service intervals we a lot closer together as well.

 

Cheers

 

Rev Light

[embee 7,288]

This could be debated till the cows come home.

 

From the motor industry point of view (i.e. the engine manufacturers), it has always been an objective to reduce wear, reduce oil consumption, increase service intervals and reliability.

 

Going back to the dark ages, as the original Mini has been quoted, the oil consumption was diabolical. A friend lent me a copy of a road test of the original Mini Cooper from the early 1960's, and the oil consumption in the test was 600 miles per pint, which was deemed "acceptable". As said by others, bike oils for integral gearbox designs have more anti-wear additives than car oils (zinc/phosphorus compounds), but these cause catalyst deterioration so it's a balancing act. The contact pressure at gear teeth depends on the design, thus as said gears are designed to live with the oils used.

 

Modern materials and surface finishes are way beyond what was available years ago, ceramic "diamond like coatings" (DLC) etc for valve train parts and so on. Oil consumption is generally minimal these days, blowby is much lower than it used to be, and oils and fuels don't result in the dreaded "black sludge" which reached a peak around the 1970's and literally killed engines. Synthetic oils can greatly extend the service life of the oil, as can decent filtration.

 

Engine development programmes include extensive detailed analysis of wear and oil condition. Long intervals are not determined lightly. 

 

At one manufacturer I worked for, we did a customer survey regarding powertrain attitudes. A couple of main results stood out. First, the vast majority of customers don't care what's under the bonnet and would rather not know, and second the biggest thing they hated was having to take the car to the dealer's (for any reason). Customers want extended service intervals. Motor manufacturers do generally try to give the customer what they want because it's good for business (remember the reason why the Japanese bike industry destroyed the British bike industry?).

[Guest vtwin]

0.5L per 1000km oil consumption is considered acceptable on VW group engines

[Guest Rev Light]

I do not anyone wants to go back to the dark ages. I do understand that we have come a long way.  But I tend to keep my bikes for a long time and hope to do a high mileage on this one.  I have been very happy so far with my purchase.  So my question is more about looking after my investment.  My other bike, a 1982 BMW R100 has more than 90,000 miles on it and I am not about to sell it.

 

I also have a VW car with 120,000 on the clock.  And, yes, I do have to top the oil up quite regularly.  Not sure where is disappearing to, its not leaking, it passes emission tests. And its very reliable.  But I do have a litre of oil in the boot.   Go figure?

 

Cheers

 

Rev Light

[embee 7,288]

FWIW, even having worked in the industry for 35yrs+, I still change the oil on my bikes often earlier than necessary. It gives me a warm feeling and doesn't do any harm (apart from wearing out the sump plug thread!).

 

On the bikes I use most it's annual, and that often works out at 3-4k miles though I'll let it go to 6k if it's done a long tour etc. A couple of other vehicles only do barely 1500mls a year and I usually do those every 2 years. I do use good oils (IMO) and always change the filter (I use OE filters, but that's another thread).

 

Everyone has favourite oils, my choice is Castrol Power1 (formerly GPS) in the bikes, and Mobil1 in the cars. I've found these always stay clean and the Castrol seems to work nicely in the clutches. YMMV.

[trisaki 2,029]

I work on bikes every day of the week , I see the state of engine oil after , say 2000 miles , I change my oils in my van and car every 4/5 thou miles / my bikes every 2/ 3 thou max ,

[cazmal 359]

Change my bike oil every year regardless of mileage - I don't do many miles but I understand that the oils can still deteriorate so worth the relatively small outlay for me.

[Tonto 82]

my FJR1300 had regular servicing and it did 95000 miles before I sold it. I bought 1litre of oil when I got the bike and gave the new owner 2/3rds litre still left from it . Oil changes were 6000 and the engine still sounded like new . Really cant see the point in extra changes even if you have a BMW aircooled , in fact especially then as you have to top them up so often you must have done a complete change between services. As an aside my mate had a BMW 1200RT and I was amazed when they changed the brake fluid after just one year.

[Dave H 2,022]

0.5L per 1000km oil consumption is considered acceptable on VW group engines

 

I've seen this figure before.  My V6 Audi diesel gets an annual service every 7-9K and I've given up checking the oil level as it doesn't seem to use any.  Its got 120K on the clock.  I wonder if that figure applies when its bedding in as the BMW oilheads did (use a load of oil until 20K then nothing)

 

My NC gets an annual oil/filter change but I rarely do more than 3K anymore.

[Guest Rev Light]

You want to try the oil 2L petrol 8v the put into Passats/Golfs/Boras.

 

Rev Light

[Guest Stephen S]

I had my oil changed at 4000 miles (about 7 months after purchase of the bike, new). The oil was very black. The tech at the dealer said "that's a good thing, it shows that the oil is doing its job".

Was he right?

On my VW Tiguan Diesel, I am still waiting for the service required light to come in after 15 months and 17000 miles.

[matt28 401]

0.5L per 1000km oil consumption is considered acceptable on VW group engines

 

So, if your service interval is 10000 miles, in theory, you don't need to change oil

 

In fact, German cars are not as good as before.

[embee 7,288]

The "acceptance limits" quoted in service documents are usually a worst case scenario, not a typical value. Service limits are required for all sorts of things, picking a value for oil consumption is tricky, at what point do you say there's clearly something wrong.

 

There have always been (and always will be) isolated cases of certain models suffering unusually high consumption, often either through manufacturing or batch faults etc. One which crops up now and then is poor performing sealing in turbos, more common because of all the turbo diesels around now.

 

...as for black oil "doing its job", that's a bit of BS to be frank.

[matt28 401]

I was just comparing VW cars to my Toyota, where acceptable limit is 1l/10000 km, but never had to top it up. 

[Guest vtwin]

Isolated cases! We're currently doing 2 or 3 engine rebuilds a week A4 A5 and now A1.

[Dave H 2,022]

When I bought my Audi it came with an extended service interval option of up to 20K dependant on driving conditions.  The thought of the same oil & filter in use for 20K did not appeal to me so I have it changed annually (7-9K)

 

I know oil technology has come on quite a bit since I started driving but I'm a firm believer in the ethos that an ounce of prevention ...etc

[embee 7,288]

Isolated cases! We're currently doing 2 or 3 engine rebuilds a week A4 A5 and now A1.

That's why I said "isolated cases of certain models......", if you have one of those models the chances of a problem are quite high. The vast majority of modern cars don't use significant oil, but every now and then something goes awry in the production. Toyota are not immune, IIRC there was a 1.8L model with quite a thirst for the amber nectar a few years ago, and even some Honda 2.2L diesels I think had some rogue turbos which burnt it at a rate of knots. My Yaris at 85k miles doesn't use any (fortunately).

[michael 324]

Audi's, Toyota's and Volkswagens? I've stumbled into the wrong forum!

 

Seriously, if you choose to change your oiler more frequently than the manufacturer recommends, enjoy it. Yer under the bike, spying dark bits that rarely get a view, and making yourself feel good about motorcycle ownership. 

 

Therapy I say. Forget whether it's required, beneficial for the motorcycle or any of that other stuff.

 

It's about YOU and YOUR NEEDS!