Chain Adjustment related shenanigans

[Guest SlinKO PLuSh]

Howdy all.

 

I'd appreciate some advice on some chain drama i'm having with the NC750.

 

Chain was way too loose, so had a play around with the adjusters, and I could see that the swingarm alignment markers were different on each side. 

 

In my subsequent attempts to mirror them, the right side metal plate at the end of the swingarm  (the one which literally touches the adjusting nut) became physically loose in its fitting once i'd adjusted the nut appropriately in order for the chain to be at the correct tension and the alignment markers to be mirroring one another. 

 

Thinking it's probably not best to ride the bike with this end plate loose (!)

 

Any advice on what the issue is?

 

Cheers.

 

 

[Mike5100 2,061]

It's to do with tightening up the axle.  I thought I had solved the problem (buy constantly being aware of it) but found last week the same as you - the offside plate was rattling.

Some pople on here must know a good way of once you have got the axle in the right place, tightened up the adjuster nuts, how to prevent eiither side moving backover as you tighten the axle nuts.  I have used the wooden part of a hammer in the chain on the near side, but haven't worked out a way of keeping the offside one in position?

Mike

[Spindizzy 7,109]

The way I do it is to retain some tension in the axle nut. Loose enough that it slides as you tighten the adjuster but not enough for things to slop about.

 

Seems to work for me.

 

 

[rjp996 1,091]

i try to have the chain loose and adjust to tight - I find that if I go to tight and need to slacken off then the plates rattle so I 'kick' the tyre from the rear to make sure its pushed forward and the plates are tight, put some tension on the rear axle nut and re-adjust the adjuster back out again against the tension.

 

Re- reading that, it probably only makes sense in my own mind...  ;-)

[embee 7,288]

Whatever you do, make sure the plates are not loose and are correctly engaged in the ends of the swingarm legs.  Someone on here posted pictures of a case where the drive (chain) side plate had been loose and turned, the end of the plate hit the sprocket which jammed against it and resulted in a mangled mess.

 I replaced the outer locknut with a nyloc version so there's no chance of it rattling loose in use.

 

Out of interest, my Integra has cast alum end caps as opposed to the pressed steel ones on the other models (who knows why Honda do this sort of thing). I thought the engagement spigot into the end of the swingarm was not particularly big, so I drilled the inside face near the corners and loctited a couple of stainless pins about 15mm long into them so they can't rotate even if pretty loose.

 

As for chain adjustment, I also use the method of keeping the wheel spindle slightly nipped and adjusting from loose towards tight, using the adjuster nuts to pull against the slight resistance of the spindle. If it gets tighter than I wanted I back the adjusters off a turn or 2 and as described "kick" the wheel forwards and start again. Worth adding that slightly too loose is better than too little slack, if it goes tight it puts huge loads into the chain itself and the bearings at each end. A quick "sanity check" for OK is usually if it will just touch the rubbing strip on the underside of the swingarm when on the stand and lifted firmly with your fingers (not sure if this applies to the X model, need confirmation from an owner).

 

I always double check the alignment marks on bikes, some are not very accurate, but I found the NC markings were as near as dammit spot on so just use the marks now. I do check by spinning the wheel (on centrestand) and see if the chain will run centrally without wanting to go one side or the other particularly (it nearly always ends up one side but you can see if it's heavily biased).

Edited January 19, 2017 by embee

[Mike5100 2,061]

I can confirm the rule of thumb chain slack measurement system Murray is mentioing above.  One day I spent a couple of hours with a vernier calliper and taking lots of measurement to try and get the figures that Honda wanted (well - I had nothing better to do.  When I had got it spot on (I think it was 35mm on sidestand but could stand corrected).  Anyway I found that when on sidestand if you try and flap the midpoint of the lower chain run up to the swing arm it just misses it.  If you then put it on the centrestand it just touches it and makes a slight clacking sound when you do it.  This is on a 750X DCT

Mike

Edited January 19, 2017 by Mike5100

[fat al 199]

hi robin, to stop the end plate from being loose,when tightening the axle nut , place your spanner or socket on the nut  with the handle pointing up and push away from rear of bike to tighten it, if you do it with the handle hanging down and pull from rear of bike you pull the axle back slightlly causing the end plate to be loose and pulling the wheel out of line slightly.

 

al.

[Mike5100 2,061]

9 minutes ago, fat al said:

hi robin, to stop the end plate from being loose,when tightening the axle nut , place your spanner or socket on the nut  with the handle pointing up and push away from rear of bike to tighten it, if you do it with the handle hanging down and pull from rear of bike you pull the axle back slightlly causing the end plate to be loose and pulling the wheel out of line slightly.

 

al.

Derrrr .... Al - that is so obvious now you have mentioned it, and That's what I have been doing.  Not sure I can push it away from me as stuff may interfere, but at least I could stand up and pull it upwards instead of towards me sitting on my stool.

Thanks

Mike

[fat al 199]

mike, i used to use the supplied spanner in the tool kit and  used my foot to push it., when loosening it i would put it pointing straight back and use my foot again, saves straining anything.

 

al

[Mike5100 2,061]

1 hour ago, fat al said:

mike, i used to use the supplied spanner in the tool kit and  used my foot to push it., when loosening it i would put it pointing straight back and use my foot again, saves straining anything.

 

al

ah but I have a fancy Halfords Professional torque wrench which my family bought for my birthday.  Would be a shame not to use it 

Mike

[Andy m 23,527]

Torque wrenches are for applying the last 1/4 turn. Assuming it was ever callibrated (pointless if it wasn't and most aren't), using it as a ratchet is using up the callibrated setting. Each click puts force on the slipper mechanism and moves it off the position it was on the gauge.

 

Andy

[Guest SlinKO PLuSh]

Thanks for all the advice guys - turns out following a visit to Honda Newcastle that the chain is knackered - and chain and sprocket needed replacing. 

 

Only bought the bike 700 miles ago so i'm having words with the selling dealership... 

[Mike5100 2,061]

4 hours ago, Andy m said:

Torque wrenches are for applying the last 1/4 turn. Assuming it was ever callibrated (pointless if it wasn't and most aren't), using it as a ratchet is using up the callibrated setting. Each click puts force on the slipper mechanism and moves it off the position it was on the gauge.

 

Andy

Well you got me thinking Andy, so I went on a couple of sites (for instance http://www.norbar.com/en-gb/News-Events/Blog/entryid/449/the-ten-things-you-should-know-about-your-torque-wrench ) but haven't found any mention of that as a problem.  When I am tightening a bolt I only ever go to one click, so since the nut is slacker up to that point there won't be any clicks on the slipper mechanism ... or am I misunderstanding your last point.

I haven't calibrated this torque wrench (wouldn;t know how to) but bought the expensive one from Halfords Pro range after recommendations on here.  It's certainly a nice feeling bit of kit compared to my cheapo ones.

Mike

[Andy m 23,527]

I think you got it.

 

When I was quality manager at a pump manufacturer we had a calibrated torque meter* installed because every slipper wrench we sent for callibration had to be adjusted.  In a matter of days, a few hundred pulls against the slipper mechanism, you needed to be back on the meter. The numbers on the handle become meaningless unless you have the ability to move the numbers but leave the mechanism set where it is. If you use it as a ratchet, pulling and pushing to get the fastener on, you use up the setting much faster. Do up the fastener to past finger tight, pull, quarter turn, click and you get a lot more use before it goes off.

 

*A torque meter is a clock spring fastened to needle (or electronic cell doing the same). You put a length and weight on the spring to produce a torque. All these bits are temperature controlled, weighed and measured to a hundredth of the tolerance you need to hold. Once calibrated you move the needle so the reading is correct and you use that to check the wrench slips when it should.

 

Without this

 

Cromwell

 

The numbers don't mean anything after a hundred pulls. 

 

Andy

 

 

[Mike5100 2,061]

9 hours ago, Andy m said:

I think you got it.

 

When I was quality manager at a pump manufacturer we had a calibrated torque meter* installed because every slipper wrench we sent for callibration had to be adjusted.  In a matter of days, a few hundred pulls against the slipper mechanism, you needed to be back on the meter. The numbers on the handle become meaningless unless you have the ability to move the numbers but leave the mechanism set where it is. If you use it as a ratchet, pulling and pushing to get the fastener on, you use up the setting much faster. Do up the fastener to past finger tight, pull, quarter turn, click and you get a lot more use before it goes off.

 

*A torque meter is a clock spring fastened to needle (or electronic cell doing the same). You put a length and weight on the spring to produce a torque. All these bits are temperature controlled, weighed and measured to a hundredth of the tolerance you need to hold. Once calibrated you move the needle so the reading is correct and you use that to check the wrench slips when it should.

 

Without this

 

Cromwell

 

The numbers don't mean anything after a hundred pulls. 

 

Andy

 

 

A snip at £650, I will put it on my next xmas wish list  Interesting stuff though. My two cheap torque wrenches have simply got engraved marks on a rotating barrel.  The Halfords one has got a needle in a window so I'm guessing it might be recalibrateable.  I learned something from the article I quoted - there should be a mark on the handle about which I am supposed to centre my hand for the pull.  I will take a look.

Mike

[Reckless 945]

There are lots of firms around that will check calibration and issue a cert, many times there will be issues with the readings as in accurate at a certain torque but errors at other settings, all shown on calibration cert.

The chain adjusters on my old zzr600 were the best I have come across, they were adjusted both ways by screws, I found out when I couldn't kick the wheel back to slacken the chain.

Edited January 20, 2017 by Reckless
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[Rick 236]

I think a lot of you miss the point when talking about  torque wrench use, even if a wrench is 10% out it can still be a lot safer than a ham fisted home mechanic guessing the tightness of the important bolts, and as for things with 2 or more fasteners as in brake calipers, its far safer to have both bolts at the same tension, as one tighter than the other can cause the other to drop out! Sure get them calibrated, I have mine checked, but don't panic if they are slightly out.

[Mike5100 2,061]

1 hour ago, Rick said:

I think a lot of you miss the point when talking about  torque wrench use, even if a wrench is 10% out it can still be a lot safer than a ham fisted home mechanic guessing the tightness of the important bolts, and as for things with 2 or more fasteners as in brake calipers, its far safer to have both bolts at the same tension, as one tighter than the other can cause the other to drop out! Sure get them calibrated, I have mine checked, but don't panic if they are slightly out.

I took a look at my Halford's one anyway.   There is nothing apparent on the device that would show how you could adjust calibration, nor is there anything in the instructions.  The thing about hand position is a bit irrelevant as there is only one place you would expect to put your hand.

I think I will at least stop undoing nuts with the torque wrench 

Mike

[Rick 236]

Yes that's wise, in fact don't use any ratchet to undo things it only wears them out quicker, use a breaker bar (long handled) on things like wheel nuts, it saves hurting yourself.

[Reckless 945]

37 minutes ago, Mike5100 said:

I took a look at my Halford's one anyway.   There is nothing apparent on the device that would show how you could adjust calibration, nor is there anything in the instructions.  The thing about hand position is a bit irrelevant as there is only one place you would expect to put your hand.

I think I will at least stop undoing nuts with the torque wrench 

Mike

Hence taking them in for recal, they know how and where to adjust them, as Rick says with bolts being same torque which will at least be near required setting is much better than everything being set at random

[Gaucho 555]

You can never have to many gadgets/special tools. For chain adjustment I use a chain monkey and for alignment a Profi cat laser. They're good bits of kit and not too expensive.

Charlie.

[embee 7,288]

Torque wrenches are a perennial discussion point. Coming from industry where fasteners are a major issue I'm pretty well versed in the business.

 

As far as I'm aware the standard for general use industrial quality wrenches is +/-3% or thereabouts. I have a couple which are of this standard, and when checked they come in pretty much within that. I've checked a couple of cheap and cheerful wrenches (Sealey/Draper type) against mine, admittedly not quite calibration lab methods but reasonable, and they've been a lot better than I suspected, well within 10% and generally no worse than 5%. In reality this is perfectly OK for everyday use. In industry specialist tools are usually used for more sensitive applications like main bearings and con-rods etc and use different methods for tightening.

 

The main things I'd suggest, as already commented on by others, is that they are a precision tool for final tightening, nothing else. Don't undo things with them, and don't go over range. Don't trust them at the extremes of the range either unless they are calibrated good quality tools (Norbar etc). The Halfords Pro wrenches always get good reviews and you can't really go wrong with them, look after them as a precision instrument and they'll give good service.

 

general torque figures given for fasteners usually assume dry or lightly oiled assembly. If you apply grease or anti-seize paste etc, I'd suggest dropping the figures by about 10%. If I do use a torque wrench on general fasteners I usually tighten by hand to a reasonable value to get the "feel", then use the wrench set at a low figure to check, and then add a little more to bring it up towards the given value, but always monitoring the feel of it. A practiced skilled mechanic can get very close to an optimum value by feel, it's surprising how sensitive feel can be in the right hands, you can sense if it's right once you know what is going on.

 

The most common mistake is to over-tighten things. Fasteners are essentially just very stiff springs being stretched, keep it in the elastic range and it's fine, overstretch it and it will permanently elongate and will likely either come loose or break. Fortunately the use of windy impact wrenches by cowboys to tighten car wheel nuts seems to have been more or less banished now, about the worst possible thing you can do.

[Andy m 23,527]

I once ran a trial of workshop torque wrench (the one they used for getting nuts out from under the bench, proping the door open in summer etc.) against feel and an air gun. A 16 year old apprentice handed a standard length ring spanner and told not to strip any threads did as well as the wrench on basic tapped aluminium casting to plate joints using 8.8 bolts. Gasket joints are different, but easy to spot as they will be a pattern torque and second re-torque at a higher setting. The air gun with the regulator set to 11and used until the tank was empty was of course a joke.

 

Andy

 

 

[Scootabout 2,248]

I'm considering trying to adjust the chain myself for the first time.  My only torque wrench has a limit of 60Nm.  Can I get away with using this to its maximum setting and then turning the nut a bit more?  If so, how much?  Or do I have to bite the bullet and spend £80 on a higher-range wrench?  

[Spindizzy 7,109]

4 minutes ago, Scootabout said:

I'm considering trying to adjust the chain myself for the first time.  My only torque wrench has a limit of 60Nm.  Can I get away with using this to its maximum setting and then turning the nut a bit more?  If so, how much?  Or do I have to bite the bullet and spend £80 on a higher-range wrench?  

Standard wrench, do it up tight, job done.

 

Never, ever used a torque wrench on a wheel nut. It all just clamps up tight on the spacers.